Forum Navigation
You need to log in to create posts and topics.

Meta: 'Debunking the Myth: Severus Snape is an incel', from Reddit

Page 1 of 2Next

Source: Debunking the myth that Severus Snape is an incel by adreamersmusing

So, I've seen this go around a lot in the HP fandom, but unlike a lot of other exaggerated statements, this one...doesn't seem to be based on any real truth or fact.

Let's look at the definition of an incel from Wikipedia.

Incels, a portmanteau of "involuntary celibates", are members of an online subculture who define themselves as unable to find a romantic or sexual partner despite desiring one. Discussions in incel forums are often characterized by resentment, misogyny, misanthropy, self-pity and self-loathing, racism, a sense of entitlement to sex, and the endorsement of violence against sexually active people.

Alright, so which part of this definition does Snape fit? Does he define himself as being unable to find a romantic or sexual partner? Nope. He doesn't seem to want or even wish for companionship. Is he characterised by resentment? Yes, but not because he can't get laid. Is he a misogynist? Certainly not, he treats people of all genders equally badly. Misanthropy, self-loathing? Yes, but none of these issues is related to his inability to have sex. Racism? Given that he joined the Death Eaters, yes. But once again, his views on blood purity were independent of Lily, the seeds of it were there as a child. A sense of entitlement to sex, and the endorsement of violence against sexually active people? This is a confident and definitive no.

The parts of Snape that do correlate with the incel movement: resentment, self-loathing, misanthropy, are missing the core tenet of the incel movement: misogyny. Snape's resentment is not from the fact that he's unable to get laid. He does not blame women for not giving him sex. His resentment of James Potter was not solely due to Lily, either, although that was a factor. It was primarily based on the fact that James Potter had what Snape at that point lacked, which Harry pinpoints so accurately in 'The Prince's Tale: 'an air of being cared for and even adored'. James also had power and privilege, and regularly used it to abuse Snape, and of course, a young, poverty-stricken, ugly, half-blood child would feel resentful of that. So, his resentment was not based around any misogynistic idea that James could 'score' women while Snape could not.

Snape was self-loathing, but not because he could not get laid. It's actually the opposite. The first time he exhibits traits of self-loathing is after Lily dies when he says 'I wish I were dead.' He hates himself for being responsible for getting her killed. If he was an incel, he would actually celebrate her death, thinking it was the price she paid for not choosing him. But Snape's self-loathing comes from being unable to protect her.

Misanthropy: I mean....this is self-explanatory. He's a misanthrope because he doesn't like anybody, period. It's got nothing to do with sexual conquest.

Now that I've (hopefully) established why Snape does not share any notable traits related to the incel movement, let me try to debunk some often repeated 'truths' in the fandom that people repeat to play into the idea that he was an incel.

  1. Snape couldn't handle Lily rejecting him, so he joined the Death Eaters.

People always say this as if Snape wore a fedora and asked Lily on a date, and when she rejected him, decided that all muggleborns were bad and joined the Death Eaters...when that's not what happened at all.

First of all, the timeline here is wrong. Snape's fascination for the Death Eaters was independent of Lily. We already know he was likely abused by his Muggle father. We know that he loved dark magic. We also know that Slytherin was a breeding ground for blood purist views. And so, Snape was groomed into this movement; he certainly did not join the Death Eaters in reaction to Lily 'rejecting' him.

This brings us to the other point. Lily did not 'reject' Snape because Snape never told her how he felt. We don't know if Lily even knew how he felt. Lily rejected his friendship because he was on the path to becoming a Death Eater.

2) Snape stalked Lily and harassed her all the time.

Once again, false. Snape left her alone after Lily rejected his apology. He never tried to speak to her again or bothered her again. I'm certain Sirius Black would have brought it up if that were the case. But the fact that neither Remus nor Sirius even remembers that Snape and Lily were friends suggests that they went their separate paths.

3) Snape offered James and Harry to Voldemort hoping that he could get with Lily after her death.

There are several misconceptions here.

Snape did not offer James and Harry to Voldemort in exchange for Lily. He simply did not care if James or Harry's lived. That is of course terrible in its own way. But there is a definite difference between the two. Voldemort would have gone after the Potters either way. There was no deal made between Voldemort and Snape where Snape said 'I'll give you James and Harry if you let Lily live.' What happened was Voldemort was already set on killing the Potters, and Snape made a desperate request to protect Lily. His situation was a) Let the Potters all die and b) Let only James and Harry die and Lily survive. There were no other options. He wanted to save her life and let her live. It wasn't out of some hope that she would fall in love with him. She was the only person who had ever cared about him and he just did not want her to die because of his actions, nothing else.

I know Dumbledore says 'in exchange for the mother' in the hilltop scene but people are forgetting that scene is one of powerplay and negotiation between Dumbledore and Snape. Snape is a terrified Death Eater fully expecting Dumbledore to murder him. Dumbledore holds the upper hand in that interaction. It is in Snape's best interests not to defend himself and simply accept the judgement Dumbledore gives him. Dumbledore, meanwhile, is trying to make Snape as ashamed as possible to get him on his side and deliberately uses phrasing to guilt him.

4) Snape bullied Harry because he didn't get the girl.

Snape's feelings towards Harry are complicated and are wrapped up in all sorts of messy emotions including hatred, resentment, guilt, anguish, and trauma. But the foremost emotions in his hatred for Harry have to do with James. Harry is a carbon copy of James, who was his primary bully in school. We have seen how bad James was to him in SWM. It is irrational of course, but a lot of his hatred for Harry has to do with looking exactly like his bully. A lot of his feelings are also guilt because Harry is proof of Snape's own failings, of not being able to save Lily. Part of it is also resentment because protecting Harry is quite possibly the own reason Snape is still alive. He wasn't able to protect Lily and to atone, he has to protect her son. He is resentful of the fact that he has to protect his bully's son, resentful that his life has become stagnated because of this child, and of course resentful that Harry constantly gets into a lot of trouble at Hogwarts, which solidifies his image in Snape's head as 'James-lite' while also making his job of protecting him harder. So his feelings towards Harry are projection of his failings and trauma and not an inability to get the girl.

Tl;dr: Snape lacks the core tenets of incel ideology i.e misogyny and an obsession with not getting sex. The incel ideology is a violent hate movement built upon hatred towards women. Snape has never once shown any inclination to be misogynistic. He never blamed Lily for the end of their friendship; rather, he understood that it was his mistakes and choices that led their friendship to end. Just because Snape was an ugly man who loved someone one-sidedly does not mean he was automatically a violent misogynist who hated all women. 'Snape is a bully' is a fact because it is canonically supported by the text. 'Snape is an incel' is not a fact; it could be your headcanon but it has no basis in the text.

Heatherlly, mmlf and 4 other users have reacted to this post.
HeatherllymmlfThe Gestalt PrinceKrystalYampamDark Angel

Great analysis! I agree with most of it, though (as usual) I disagree with the premise that Severus hated everyone/treated everyone like shit. I'm not sure where that assumption comes from – I can't think of a single example of Severus being hostile toward and/or mistreating anyone without some underlying reason.

mmlf, The Gestalt Prince and 4 other users have reacted to this post.
mmlfThe Gestalt PrinceKrystalNaagaTimeLadyJamieDark Angel
Quote from Heatherlly on March 14, 2023, 5:09 am

Great analysis! I agree with most of it, though (as usual) I disagree with the premise that Severus hated everyone/treated everyone like shit. I'm not sure where that assumption comes from – I can't think of a single example of Severus being hostile toward and/or mistreating anyone without some underlying reason.

Yeah, fair point. I guess this is a generalized fanon at this point so we need some canon context for justifying it.

Heatherlly, mmlf and 3 other users have reacted to this post.
HeatherllymmlfThe Gestalt PrinceKrystalDark Angel

A much appreciated meta, I hate the use to this term wrt Severus as you put it, he never demonstrated 'incel' qualities and Snaters should research the terms before throwing them around.

Heatherlly, mmlf and 2 other users have reacted to this post.
HeatherllymmlfThe Gestalt PrinceNaaga

Another supposed argument in favour of Snape being an incel is that he watched Lily (and, by extension, Petunia) from behind a tree for a while before making himself known.

This claim won't work because:

1- Severus Snape had poor social graces and was chronically shy, the only reasons why he had not made himself known immediately.

2- A child watching other children play has nothing to do with the kind of sexual obsessions held by real-life stalkers.

3- When Snape did appear, Lily's reaction was curiosity which only turned to dismay after Severus' magic hurt Petunia.

4- Even despite this poor beginning, Snape and Lily quickly became friends. Lily Evans was often naiive, but based on her defence of Petunia, she did not stand for ill treatment. There's simply no way that she would have remained friends with Snape if she felt he was mistreating her. Detractors will have to explain why it took years for Lily to like James Potter, but presumably only a few days or weeks for her to become friends with Snape.

 

The Gestalt Prince, Krystal and 4 other users have reacted to this post.
The Gestalt PrinceKrystalNaagaYampamTimeLadyJamieDark Angel
Quote from mmlf on March 14, 2023, 9:36 am

Another supposed argument in favour of Snape being an incel is that he watched Lily (and, by extension, Petunia) from behind a tree for a while before making himself known.

This claim won't work because:

1- Severus Snape had poor social graces and was chronically shy, the only reason why he had not made himself known immediately.

2- A child watching other children play has nothing to do with the kind of sexual obsessions held by real-life stalkers.

3- When Snape did appear, Lily's reaction was curiosity which only turned to dismay after Severus' magic hurt Petunia.

4- Even despite this poor beginning, Snape and Lily quickly became friends. Lily Evans was often naiive, but based on her defence of Petunia, she did not stand for ill treatment. There's simply no way that she would have remained friends with Snape if she felt he was mistreating her. Detractors will have to explain why it took years for Lily to like James Potter, but presumably only a few days or weeks for her to become friends with Snape.

 

A really good argument, Snaters call 9 year old Snape stalker without trying to understand the situation.

Heatherlly, mmlf and 5 other users have reacted to this post.
HeatherllymmlfThe Gestalt PrinceKrystalYampamTimeLadyJamieDark Angel

Is he a misogynist? Certainly not, he treats people of all genders equally badly

Not the most flattering description but hey at least he's fair.

I really don't get where the whole incel accusation comes from and I think some people are using that term without knowing the exact meaning? The just know it has negative connotations and throw it around.

I wouldn't necessarily call Snape a feminist but he was ahead of his time. The fact that he left Lily alone after that talk in front of the Gryffindor entrance is quite a green flag to me. He respected her wish despite not liking it. I believe he was wrong to give up in that certain situation as it was too soon for an apology but the fact that he accepted a "No" dorm a woman quite impressed me. James for example seems to always interpret Lily's no as an invitation to try harder but Snape accepted and respected her wish right away.

The only time he exhibits toxic behavior is when he tells her he won't "let" her do sth during the talk about the werewolf prank I think. Then there's him using a slur and that's actually it.

People are seriously accusing a kid of stalking? For real?!

 


 

Heatherlly, The Gestalt Prince and 4 other users have reacted to this post.
HeatherllyThe Gestalt PrinceKrystalNaagaYampamTimeLadyJamie
Quote from Dark Angel on May 29, 2023, 4:19 pm

Is he a misogynist? Certainly not, he treats people of all genders equally badly

Not the most flattering description but hey at least he's fair.

I really don't get where the whole incel accusation comes from and I think some people are using that term without knowing the exact meaning? The just know it has negative connotations and throw it around.

I wouldn't necessarily call Snape a feminist but he was ahead of his time. The fact that he left Lily alone after that talk in front of the Gryffindor entrance is quite a green flag to me. He respected her wish despite not liking it. I believe he was wrong to give up in that certain situation as it was too soon for an apology but the fact that he accepted a "No" dorm a woman quite impressed me. James for example seems to always interpret Lily's no as an invitation to try harder but Snape accepted and respected her wish right away.

The only time he exhibits toxic behavior is when he tells her he won't "let" her do sth during the talk about the werewolf prank I think. Then there's him using a slur and that's actually it.

People are seriously accusing a kid of stalking? For real?!

 


 

I think the incel accusation is due to James and Lily ending up together and Severus ending up alone, becoming bitter, and then disliking Harry despite also protecting him to the best of his abilities.

Heatherlly, Krystal and 2 other users have reacted to this post.
HeatherllyKrystalNaagaDark Angel

This is a wonderful meta! Thank you for it!

It always bothers me when Snaters say all these things about him. If anything, I see some of what they're saying in James Potter instead of Severus as James threatened to hex her for trying to defend her best friend and then said he would stop his harassment if Lily only went on a date with him.

Heatherlly, The Gestalt Prince and 4 other users have reacted to this post.
HeatherllyThe Gestalt PrinceKrystalNaagaYampamDark Angel
Quote from TimeLadyJamie on May 29, 2023, 4:39 pm

This is a wonderful meta! Thank you for it!

It always bothers me when Snaters say all these things about him. If anything, I see some of what they're saying in James Potter instead of Severus as James threatened to hex her for trying to defend her best friend and then said he would stop his harassment if Lily only went on a date with him.

Life Lessons with James Potter:

  1. "No" means "ask me later"
  2. Liars get the girl
Heatherlly, Krystal and 3 other users have reacted to this post.
HeatherllyKrystalNaagaTimeLadyJamieDark Angel
Page 1 of 2Next