Fanon vs Canon: Lily is either very saintly or very evil
Quote from Naaga on March 20, 2023, 2:44 pmSource: Fanon Vs Canon - Check this one out, this site has actually collected these facts for many characters including Snape.
Note: This one is fair criticism of Lily in my opinion and I urge Lily fans to not think of this as bashing of her character, this came from the observation and interpretation of canon text and behaviour of Lily from reader's POV alongside JKR's statements.
Lily is either very saintly or very evil
In the films Remus talks about Lily being a kind and loving person who could see the best in everyone and who made people feel good about themselves, making it seem that young Sev must have been truly horrible if he could trample on the feelings of such a saintly person and drive her away. Fanon tends to assume that that's true in the books as well - but if it is we aren't told or shown it. Rowling herself has tweeted that "Snape was a bully who loved the goodness he sensed in Lily without being able to emulate her. That was his tragedy." but as with her flatly untrue statement that Harry never saw somebody in pain without trying to help them, this seems to be a case where she's forgotten what she wrote, because there's nothing in the books to suggest that Lily is particularly pleasant - even if Snape thought she was. I take authorial comment as canonical only where it doesn't clash with the books - and in this case, it does.
Book Lily is very brave and is both academically and magically gifted: she has extraordinary control over her wandless magic as a child; Hagrid says she was one of the best witches he ever met; Slughorn says she was one of his best-ever students, brave and funny and with an intuitive grasp of Potions; JKR says Voldie tried to recruit her, despite her blood-status. But she seems to be at best only averagely kind. She was credited with great kindness by fanon because of the films and because when we initially read OotP it looked as if she had spontaneously stepped in to protect somebody from a rival house out of the goodness of her heart - but now we know she was protecting an old friend we can see she was just doing what you would hope any half reasonable person would do if a friend was attacked in their presence. In fact she appears rather harsh and negative and is quite a poor friend to Severus, so no scenario in which she is perfect and saintly can really be canon compatible.
She does show some kind concern over young Sev's family situation but fails to stick up for him when her sister mocks him, and then blames him when he drops a branch on Petunia, even though everything about that scene suggests that this was involuntary magic of the kind which led Harry to inflate Vernon's sister. To be fair, it has been pointed out that Lily seems to have a remarkable degree of control over her own wandless magic, for one so young, and may not realise that many magical children of their age are prone to these spontaneous magical outbursts which they can't control or prevent.
Lily and Severus collaborate to nose about in Petunia's room, but when Tuney finds out and is angry, Lily puts all the blame onto Severus and punishes him with cold dislike, at a time (their first journey to Hogwarts) which ought to have been happy for both of them. And she is probably the girl heard laughing at him as he struggled with a broom.
Most telling of all is the courtyard scene. Lily knows that Severus had a life-threatening experience a few days ago, from which he had to be rescued, and this is the first time she has spoken to him since. Yet, she shows no shred of concern, no interest in how he is or whether he was frightened, but instead launches straight into criticizing his choice in friends. And then, having already accepted the Marauders' version of events, she refuses to take Severus's word on what happened, even though he is meant to be her friend and is actually telling the truth, as far as his promise to the staff about not talking about what Remus is will allow him. In fairness, the fact that he has been bound to secrecy means that he is unable to produce any evidence for his theories about Remus, even of the "I tell you I saw it with my own eyes" variety, so of course he comes across as if he's just waffling - but she could have given him the benefit of the doubt, or at least been kind enough to pretend to.
This of course causes more trouble between them. When Severus says "I won't let you -" it seems likely that he's trying to say "I won't let you sleepwalk into danger", but then he realises that his promise to the staff means that he can't tell her that James Potter's immediate circle includes a werewolf and a would-be murderer (even though in the event they weren't the ones he should have been worrying about). But since he can't say that, Lily - perhaps understandably, since she has no way to know he's been bound to silence - just thinks he's trying to run her life for her.They both come from the sort of area where sexism was still rampant and we see that young Sev's own father apparently bullied his mother, so it would be a fairly natural assumption.
Then there's the underpants scene. I don't hold it against her that she had to suppress a smile when she saw her friend's bare legs, because that was probably affectionate, if mildly inappropriate under the circumstances. But according to Rowling she was to some extent flirting with James, or at least finding him attractive, under circumstances where his behaviour ought to have genuinely revolted her. "How did they get together? She hated James, from what we've seen." JKR: "Did she really? You're a woman, you know what I'm saying." "From what we've seen" has to refer either to the courtyard scene where Lily says James is a toerag, or more probably to the underpants incident, because that's the scene where we see Lily actually interact with James. In any case the courtyard scene came first, so whichever incident JKR is thinking of when she says that Lily secretly rather fancied the bully she superficially appeared to hate, this was already the case during the underpants scene.
Lily has a right to be angry when Sev turns on her in his rage and distress, but it's clear from what she says later that he's been using the word "Mudblood" for a long time and she has tolerated it, until it was applied to herself. Part of the problem, it seems, is that she has been giving him mixed signals for a long time, and perhaps hasn't made it clear that she expects to be treated differently and more respectfully than other Muggle-borns - either because she feels she is special or just because she thinks Sev should treat her better because she's his friend (which could be argued either way, morally).
Of course she felt shocked and betrayed, and to desert him at that point was perhaps understandable, although poor-spirited: a more ethical and less self-regarding person would have stuck up for a victim of bullying because bullying is wrong, regardless of their personal relationship or whether or not they were polite or even likeable. But she doesn't just leave: she joins in with the bullying, calls him "Snivellus" and mocks him for his poor clothes, which she knows he is sensitive about.
Just imagine if Ron and Harry were going through one of their difficult patches (as we see from the courtyard scene that Lily and Sev's relationship had become difficult), and Ron was attacked by Draco's gang, Harry came to help him but did so in a way which Ron felt to be condescending, and Ron in his fury and panic reacted something along the lines of "Get lost, freak." We would all, I think, understand it if Harry replied "Fine: sort it out yourself then" and stalked off - but what would we think if Harry instead sided with Draco's gang, joined in in attacking Ron and used his intimate knowledge of him to jeer at his poverty and hurt him as badly as possible, and then refused to accept Ron's apology but instead treated him with absolute contempt, and subsequently became best buddies with Draco instead? If we say that this is acceptable behaviour for Lily but not for Harry, are we not buying into the sexist idea that a woman's capacity for friendship isn't expected to be as deep or loyal or honourable as a man's?
This is another example where the current generation are shown to be better than the previous one. Lily's turning on Severus and joining in in bullying him contrasts poorly with Hermione's endless patience and kindness towards Kreacher, even though he racially abuses her at every chance he gets.
When Severus comes to apologise to Lily, she not only rejects him in a very cold way but puts words into his mouth, won't let him speak for himself, and tells him that "my friends" don't know why she still sees him - not "my other friends".She couldn't make it plainer that she doesn't regard him as a friend, and hasn't done for some time. What we don't know is whether it is only Severus she treats this coldly and harshly, or whether she's like that to all her friends. It may be that she's liable to blow hot and cold to anyone who gets close to her (she's Petunia's sister, after all, and shares a quarter of her genes with Dudley), in which case she and James arguably deserve each other.
In fact, there's a certain amount of evidence that indeed she was like this to everyone. On Pottermore we're told that one of the reasons the Dursleys disliked Harry was because James had swanked about his wealth and been obnoxious to them, so evidently Lily didn't protect Tuney from James, just as she hadn't protected Sev from Tuney. In the letter written after Harry's first birthday party Lily is quite pleased that young Harry has broken an ugly vase which Petunia sent her for Christmas, so we see that Petunia made at least some effort to stay in touch, and Lily didn't value it. It's noticeable that Harry meets two close schoolfriends of his father's and also talks to at last three other people (Rosmerta, McGonagall, Hagrid) who seem to have liked James, but the only people he meeets who were directly connected with Lily at school are Snape and Slughorn. There are no queues of Lily's old friends waiting to come forwards.
JK Rowling said something to the effect that Lily might have loved Severus if he hadn't drifted towards the Death Eaters, but in the courtyard scene Lily is criticizing the behaviour of Sev's friends, not his own behaviour, so this must be early in the "drifting towards the Death Eaters" process, and yet it's clear that she is already far from being a kind or caring friend. My own theory, which fits with the fact that Lily eventually took up with a swaggering bully whose behaviour towards her (trying to force her to date him by holding her friend hostage, and threatening to hex her for defending her friend even when he, James, is the one at fault) suggested that he might become abusive, is that Lily liked her friends to be followers and acolytes, and her lovers to be dominant and masterful. Poor Severus was too spiky and independent to make a good acolyte, and too gentle and insecure to be masterful to someone on whom he doted like a puppy, so he fell between two stools. If he had done what James would probably have done if he needed to apologize to Lily, and had just said "Look, I've said I'm sorry and I'm sorry, OK? Don't make a meal of it." she would probably have said "OK" and accepted it, but he didn't have the self-confidence to shrug off his own guilt the way the Marauders do.
But then, low-grade friend though she seems to be, it's unfair to make Lily a villain either. To begin with, we only see those scenes from their friendship which Snape chooses to show to Harry to explain how he got where he did, and how he ended up as both Lily's inadvertent betrayer and a slave to her memory: there must have been a thousand incidents from their friendship which Harry never sees, and which may have been much kinder. Indeed, if we accept interview canon then there have to have been. JK Rowling has tweeted that Snape "loved the goodness he sensed in Lily without being able to emulate her. That was his tragedy." and we see very little sign of goodness in the Lily of the books, who is therefore a bit of a Mary Sue - we're supposed to like her and believe that she is good and speshul because the author says she is, without any actual evidence.
[It seems as if Rowling is quite unaware of how harsh and cold and disloyal Lily appears, but that may be because - according to John Nettleship - the disdainful way Lily treats Severus was the normal way girls really did treat boys at Wyedean, Rowling's secondary school. John, the Ur-Snape, saw nothing wrong with this as he believed that females were intrinsically superior to males in all ways, which may explain why young Sev is such a doormat to Lily.]
Then, Lily is not of a much higher social class than Snape. The fact that Petunia is so worried about what the neighbours will think of her strongly suggests that the Evanses were no higher than lower middle class or even upper working class, to Snape's lower working class. And they too come from the industrial Midlands. If we allow that Snape's negativity, dourness and reluctance to give praise where it's due are partly cultural, the same must apply to Lily and Petunia. You also have to consider that Petunia probably got her snobbery and her scorn for people from a poor address like Spinner's End from their parents, so it probably took an act of bravery and independence for Lily to be friends with Severus, and she would have had to struggle with a worm in the back of her brain that told her he wasn't good enough, and that glossy, wealthy James was what she should aspire to.
Then, when we look at Petunia's complaint about how their parents favoured Lily, and the way she herself sets Dudley so far above Harry, and the way Lily sneers at Petunia's gift behind her back, this all suggests that the Evanses may have been the sort of family who played favourites, and where people were always moving in or out of favour. So Lily may only be doing to Severus what she has learned from her parents as being normal behaviour towards someone you (at least some of the time) love. Just as Severus puts up with her blowing hot and cold, because he seems to come from a family where people are randomly unpleasant towards what should be their nearest and dearest.
And although Lily is partly to blame for the break-up with Severus, because she gives him confusing signals about whether it's OK for him to say "Mudblood" or not, and never seems to give him a clear choice between herself and his dodgy proto-Death Eater friends but goes from criticism to reassurance to cutting him off dead, she is very young, and managing the moods of a stroppy, sullen teenage boy is a difficult task even for an experienced adult. The fact that James felt he had to hide his continuing hex-war with Severus from her in seventh year tends to suggest that she did still care at least a bit about her old friend, even if she wasn't going to admit that to him.
The fact that she didn't even consider accepting James's offer to leave Severus alone in future if she would only go out with him seems rather poor spirited - after all, James didn't say she had to go out with him more than once, yet she wasn't even willing to sacrifice one afternoon to save her supposed friend from persecution. That she apparently accepted it when Severus called other people Mudblood, but not when he applied it to her, suggests that she was self-centred and regarded herself as more important than other people, but that may have been the result of a misunderstanding of the fact that he called her a "filthy Mudblood".
The word "filthy" is ambiguous. A few times we see it being used in a context where it seems that somebody really is being accused of having dirty blood, but most of the time when we see it being used by JK's characters (or by herself in real life) it seems to be being used just like the other f-word. When JK jokingly called a friend of hers "a filthy, filthy liar" she didn't mean they were literally dirty. Since Snape later uses "filthy" to describe pure-blood James ("your filthy father"), when he calls Lily a filthy Mudblood he too probably just means it in the way he might say "a blasted Mudblood", but if Lily had suffered any serious racial abuse recently she might have thought that he was literally saying that her blood was dirty, in which case her extreme anger is more understandable.
Although Lily's behaviour towards Severus often seems harsh and cold, she may not be aware of this, and Rowling herself may see nothing wrong with it, because according to John Nettleship this hard offhand behaviour really was how the girls treated the boys at Wyedean, Rowling's secondary school.
Then there's the odd bit of business about the doe Patronus. After reviewing Snape's memories in the Pensieve Harry says that Snape's doe is the same as his mother's Patronus, but we're not told how he now knows this. He didn't know it before: he spent endless hours speculating as to whose Patronus the doe was, and never thought of Lily. What he did feel was that the doe was "inexplicably familiar" and that he had been waiting for her to come.
The most mundane explanation for this is that Harry had seen his mother's Patronus when he was little, although he didn't consciously remember it. The least mundane is that Snape's doe Patronus isn't just the same as Lily's, it is in some sense Lily herself, watching over her old friend as he tries to protect her son. That may seem farfetched, but Dumbledore (and therefore Rowling) seems to be thinking something of this sort when he comments on Harry's Patronus that "You think the dead we have loved ever truly leave us? You think that we don't recall them more clearly than ever in times of great trouble? Your father is alive in you, Harry, and shows himself most plainly when you have need of him. How else could you produce that particular Patronus? Prongs rode again last night." That seems to suggest something a bit more mystical than "When you felt the need for a father's support you subconsciously recalled your father's Animagus form, which you had witnessed as a baby", and makes the idea that Snape's Patronus is in some sense Lily herself at least vaguely canon-compatible. And the fact that James felt the need to lie to her about his continued hexing of Severus suggests she never quite lost all concern for him.
Fanon is divided as to whether Lily would be horrified by Snape's overbearing manner and medium-level hostility towards Harry, or not. But since she's Petunia's sister and her own manner towards young Severus was quite harsh and critical even when she was still saying they were best friends, I suspect she would regard being fiercely protective of someone's safety whilst being quite hostile on an emotional and social level as normal behaviour, as it quite possibly was in the area they both grew up in.
Source: Fanon Vs Canon - Check this one out, this site has actually collected these facts for many characters including Snape.
Note: This one is fair criticism of Lily in my opinion and I urge Lily fans to not think of this as bashing of her character, this came from the observation and interpretation of canon text and behaviour of Lily from reader's POV alongside JKR's statements.
Lily is either very saintly or very evil
In the films Remus talks about Lily being a kind and loving person who could see the best in everyone and who made people feel good about themselves, making it seem that young Sev must have been truly horrible if he could trample on the feelings of such a saintly person and drive her away. Fanon tends to assume that that's true in the books as well - but if it is we aren't told or shown it. Rowling herself has tweeted that "Snape was a bully who loved the goodness he sensed in Lily without being able to emulate her. That was his tragedy." but as with her flatly untrue statement that Harry never saw somebody in pain without trying to help them, this seems to be a case where she's forgotten what she wrote, because there's nothing in the books to suggest that Lily is particularly pleasant - even if Snape thought she was. I take authorial comment as canonical only where it doesn't clash with the books - and in this case, it does.
Book Lily is very brave and is both academically and magically gifted: she has extraordinary control over her wandless magic as a child; Hagrid says she was one of the best witches he ever met; Slughorn says she was one of his best-ever students, brave and funny and with an intuitive grasp of Potions; JKR says Voldie tried to recruit her, despite her blood-status. But she seems to be at best only averagely kind. She was credited with great kindness by fanon because of the films and because when we initially read OotP it looked as if she had spontaneously stepped in to protect somebody from a rival house out of the goodness of her heart - but now we know she was protecting an old friend we can see she was just doing what you would hope any half reasonable person would do if a friend was attacked in their presence. In fact she appears rather harsh and negative and is quite a poor friend to Severus, so no scenario in which she is perfect and saintly can really be canon compatible.
She does show some kind concern over young Sev's family situation but fails to stick up for him when her sister mocks him, and then blames him when he drops a branch on Petunia, even though everything about that scene suggests that this was involuntary magic of the kind which led Harry to inflate Vernon's sister. To be fair, it has been pointed out that Lily seems to have a remarkable degree of control over her own wandless magic, for one so young, and may not realise that many magical children of their age are prone to these spontaneous magical outbursts which they can't control or prevent.
Lily and Severus collaborate to nose about in Petunia's room, but when Tuney finds out and is angry, Lily puts all the blame onto Severus and punishes him with cold dislike, at a time (their first journey to Hogwarts) which ought to have been happy for both of them. And she is probably the girl heard laughing at him as he struggled with a broom.
Most telling of all is the courtyard scene. Lily knows that Severus had a life-threatening experience a few days ago, from which he had to be rescued, and this is the first time she has spoken to him since. Yet, she shows no shred of concern, no interest in how he is or whether he was frightened, but instead launches straight into criticizing his choice in friends. And then, having already accepted the Marauders' version of events, she refuses to take Severus's word on what happened, even though he is meant to be her friend and is actually telling the truth, as far as his promise to the staff about not talking about what Remus is will allow him. In fairness, the fact that he has been bound to secrecy means that he is unable to produce any evidence for his theories about Remus, even of the "I tell you I saw it with my own eyes" variety, so of course he comes across as if he's just waffling - but she could have given him the benefit of the doubt, or at least been kind enough to pretend to.
This of course causes more trouble between them. When Severus says "I won't let you -" it seems likely that he's trying to say "I won't let you sleepwalk into danger", but then he realises that his promise to the staff means that he can't tell her that James Potter's immediate circle includes a werewolf and a would-be murderer (even though in the event they weren't the ones he should have been worrying about). But since he can't say that, Lily - perhaps understandably, since she has no way to know he's been bound to silence - just thinks he's trying to run her life for her.They both come from the sort of area where sexism was still rampant and we see that young Sev's own father apparently bullied his mother, so it would be a fairly natural assumption.
Then there's the underpants scene. I don't hold it against her that she had to suppress a smile when she saw her friend's bare legs, because that was probably affectionate, if mildly inappropriate under the circumstances. But according to Rowling she was to some extent flirting with James, or at least finding him attractive, under circumstances where his behaviour ought to have genuinely revolted her. "How did they get together? She hated James, from what we've seen." JKR: "Did she really? You're a woman, you know what I'm saying." "From what we've seen" has to refer either to the courtyard scene where Lily says James is a toerag, or more probably to the underpants incident, because that's the scene where we see Lily actually interact with James. In any case the courtyard scene came first, so whichever incident JKR is thinking of when she says that Lily secretly rather fancied the bully she superficially appeared to hate, this was already the case during the underpants scene.
Lily has a right to be angry when Sev turns on her in his rage and distress, but it's clear from what she says later that he's been using the word "Mudblood" for a long time and she has tolerated it, until it was applied to herself. Part of the problem, it seems, is that she has been giving him mixed signals for a long time, and perhaps hasn't made it clear that she expects to be treated differently and more respectfully than other Muggle-borns - either because she feels she is special or just because she thinks Sev should treat her better because she's his friend (which could be argued either way, morally).
Of course she felt shocked and betrayed, and to desert him at that point was perhaps understandable, although poor-spirited: a more ethical and less self-regarding person would have stuck up for a victim of bullying because bullying is wrong, regardless of their personal relationship or whether or not they were polite or even likeable. But she doesn't just leave: she joins in with the bullying, calls him "Snivellus" and mocks him for his poor clothes, which she knows he is sensitive about.
Just imagine if Ron and Harry were going through one of their difficult patches (as we see from the courtyard scene that Lily and Sev's relationship had become difficult), and Ron was attacked by Draco's gang, Harry came to help him but did so in a way which Ron felt to be condescending, and Ron in his fury and panic reacted something along the lines of "Get lost, freak." We would all, I think, understand it if Harry replied "Fine: sort it out yourself then" and stalked off - but what would we think if Harry instead sided with Draco's gang, joined in in attacking Ron and used his intimate knowledge of him to jeer at his poverty and hurt him as badly as possible, and then refused to accept Ron's apology but instead treated him with absolute contempt, and subsequently became best buddies with Draco instead? If we say that this is acceptable behaviour for Lily but not for Harry, are we not buying into the sexist idea that a woman's capacity for friendship isn't expected to be as deep or loyal or honourable as a man's?
This is another example where the current generation are shown to be better than the previous one. Lily's turning on Severus and joining in in bullying him contrasts poorly with Hermione's endless patience and kindness towards Kreacher, even though he racially abuses her at every chance he gets.
When Severus comes to apologise to Lily, she not only rejects him in a very cold way but puts words into his mouth, won't let him speak for himself, and tells him that "my friends" don't know why she still sees him - not "my other friends".She couldn't make it plainer that she doesn't regard him as a friend, and hasn't done for some time. What we don't know is whether it is only Severus she treats this coldly and harshly, or whether she's like that to all her friends. It may be that she's liable to blow hot and cold to anyone who gets close to her (she's Petunia's sister, after all, and shares a quarter of her genes with Dudley), in which case she and James arguably deserve each other.
In fact, there's a certain amount of evidence that indeed she was like this to everyone. On Pottermore we're told that one of the reasons the Dursleys disliked Harry was because James had swanked about his wealth and been obnoxious to them, so evidently Lily didn't protect Tuney from James, just as she hadn't protected Sev from Tuney. In the letter written after Harry's first birthday party Lily is quite pleased that young Harry has broken an ugly vase which Petunia sent her for Christmas, so we see that Petunia made at least some effort to stay in touch, and Lily didn't value it. It's noticeable that Harry meets two close schoolfriends of his father's and also talks to at last three other people (Rosmerta, McGonagall, Hagrid) who seem to have liked James, but the only people he meeets who were directly connected with Lily at school are Snape and Slughorn. There are no queues of Lily's old friends waiting to come forwards.
JK Rowling said something to the effect that Lily might have loved Severus if he hadn't drifted towards the Death Eaters, but in the courtyard scene Lily is criticizing the behaviour of Sev's friends, not his own behaviour, so this must be early in the "drifting towards the Death Eaters" process, and yet it's clear that she is already far from being a kind or caring friend. My own theory, which fits with the fact that Lily eventually took up with a swaggering bully whose behaviour towards her (trying to force her to date him by holding her friend hostage, and threatening to hex her for defending her friend even when he, James, is the one at fault) suggested that he might become abusive, is that Lily liked her friends to be followers and acolytes, and her lovers to be dominant and masterful. Poor Severus was too spiky and independent to make a good acolyte, and too gentle and insecure to be masterful to someone on whom he doted like a puppy, so he fell between two stools. If he had done what James would probably have done if he needed to apologize to Lily, and had just said "Look, I've said I'm sorry and I'm sorry, OK? Don't make a meal of it." she would probably have said "OK" and accepted it, but he didn't have the self-confidence to shrug off his own guilt the way the Marauders do.
But then, low-grade friend though she seems to be, it's unfair to make Lily a villain either. To begin with, we only see those scenes from their friendship which Snape chooses to show to Harry to explain how he got where he did, and how he ended up as both Lily's inadvertent betrayer and a slave to her memory: there must have been a thousand incidents from their friendship which Harry never sees, and which may have been much kinder. Indeed, if we accept interview canon then there have to have been. JK Rowling has tweeted that Snape "loved the goodness he sensed in Lily without being able to emulate her. That was his tragedy." and we see very little sign of goodness in the Lily of the books, who is therefore a bit of a Mary Sue - we're supposed to like her and believe that she is good and speshul because the author says she is, without any actual evidence.
[It seems as if Rowling is quite unaware of how harsh and cold and disloyal Lily appears, but that may be because - according to John Nettleship - the disdainful way Lily treats Severus was the normal way girls really did treat boys at Wyedean, Rowling's secondary school. John, the Ur-Snape, saw nothing wrong with this as he believed that females were intrinsically superior to males in all ways, which may explain why young Sev is such a doormat to Lily.]
Then, Lily is not of a much higher social class than Snape. The fact that Petunia is so worried about what the neighbours will think of her strongly suggests that the Evanses were no higher than lower middle class or even upper working class, to Snape's lower working class. And they too come from the industrial Midlands. If we allow that Snape's negativity, dourness and reluctance to give praise where it's due are partly cultural, the same must apply to Lily and Petunia. You also have to consider that Petunia probably got her snobbery and her scorn for people from a poor address like Spinner's End from their parents, so it probably took an act of bravery and independence for Lily to be friends with Severus, and she would have had to struggle with a worm in the back of her brain that told her he wasn't good enough, and that glossy, wealthy James was what she should aspire to.
Then, when we look at Petunia's complaint about how their parents favoured Lily, and the way she herself sets Dudley so far above Harry, and the way Lily sneers at Petunia's gift behind her back, this all suggests that the Evanses may have been the sort of family who played favourites, and where people were always moving in or out of favour. So Lily may only be doing to Severus what she has learned from her parents as being normal behaviour towards someone you (at least some of the time) love. Just as Severus puts up with her blowing hot and cold, because he seems to come from a family where people are randomly unpleasant towards what should be their nearest and dearest.
And although Lily is partly to blame for the break-up with Severus, because she gives him confusing signals about whether it's OK for him to say "Mudblood" or not, and never seems to give him a clear choice between herself and his dodgy proto-Death Eater friends but goes from criticism to reassurance to cutting him off dead, she is very young, and managing the moods of a stroppy, sullen teenage boy is a difficult task even for an experienced adult. The fact that James felt he had to hide his continuing hex-war with Severus from her in seventh year tends to suggest that she did still care at least a bit about her old friend, even if she wasn't going to admit that to him.
The fact that she didn't even consider accepting James's offer to leave Severus alone in future if she would only go out with him seems rather poor spirited - after all, James didn't say she had to go out with him more than once, yet she wasn't even willing to sacrifice one afternoon to save her supposed friend from persecution. That she apparently accepted it when Severus called other people Mudblood, but not when he applied it to her, suggests that she was self-centred and regarded herself as more important than other people, but that may have been the result of a misunderstanding of the fact that he called her a "filthy Mudblood".
The word "filthy" is ambiguous. A few times we see it being used in a context where it seems that somebody really is being accused of having dirty blood, but most of the time when we see it being used by JK's characters (or by herself in real life) it seems to be being used just like the other f-word. When JK jokingly called a friend of hers "a filthy, filthy liar" she didn't mean they were literally dirty. Since Snape later uses "filthy" to describe pure-blood James ("your filthy father"), when he calls Lily a filthy Mudblood he too probably just means it in the way he might say "a blasted Mudblood", but if Lily had suffered any serious racial abuse recently she might have thought that he was literally saying that her blood was dirty, in which case her extreme anger is more understandable.
Although Lily's behaviour towards Severus often seems harsh and cold, she may not be aware of this, and Rowling herself may see nothing wrong with it, because according to John Nettleship this hard offhand behaviour really was how the girls treated the boys at Wyedean, Rowling's secondary school.
Then there's the odd bit of business about the doe Patronus. After reviewing Snape's memories in the Pensieve Harry says that Snape's doe is the same as his mother's Patronus, but we're not told how he now knows this. He didn't know it before: he spent endless hours speculating as to whose Patronus the doe was, and never thought of Lily. What he did feel was that the doe was "inexplicably familiar" and that he had been waiting for her to come.
The most mundane explanation for this is that Harry had seen his mother's Patronus when he was little, although he didn't consciously remember it. The least mundane is that Snape's doe Patronus isn't just the same as Lily's, it is in some sense Lily herself, watching over her old friend as he tries to protect her son. That may seem farfetched, but Dumbledore (and therefore Rowling) seems to be thinking something of this sort when he comments on Harry's Patronus that "You think the dead we have loved ever truly leave us? You think that we don't recall them more clearly than ever in times of great trouble? Your father is alive in you, Harry, and shows himself most plainly when you have need of him. How else could you produce that particular Patronus? Prongs rode again last night." That seems to suggest something a bit more mystical than "When you felt the need for a father's support you subconsciously recalled your father's Animagus form, which you had witnessed as a baby", and makes the idea that Snape's Patronus is in some sense Lily herself at least vaguely canon-compatible. And the fact that James felt the need to lie to her about his continued hexing of Severus suggests she never quite lost all concern for him.
Fanon is divided as to whether Lily would be horrified by Snape's overbearing manner and medium-level hostility towards Harry, or not. But since she's Petunia's sister and her own manner towards young Severus was quite harsh and critical even when she was still saying they were best friends, I suspect she would regard being fiercely protective of someone's safety whilst being quite hostile on an emotional and social level as normal behaviour, as it quite possibly was in the area they both grew up in.
Quote from Krystal on March 21, 2023, 3:35 amLily liked her friends to be followers and acolytes, and her lovers to be dominant and masterful. Poor Severus was too spiky and independent to make a good acolyte, and too gentle and insecure to be masterful to someone on whom he doted like a puppy, so he fell between two stools. If he had done what James would probably have done if he needed to apologize to Lily, and had just said "Look, I've said I'm sorry and I'm sorry, OK? Don't make a meal of it." she would probably have said "OK" and accepted it, but he didn't have the self-confidence to shrug off his own guilt the way the Marauders do.
This is too much of an assumption about Lily's preference in a man. Lily may have fancied James but she didn't put up with his bullying behaviour and in fact detested it. It took James faking his maturity and changing his approach to win her that took her dating him. James remained arrogant, that's true, she might have accepted that quirk as part of his nature.
one of the reasons the Dursleys disliked Harry was because James had swanked about his wealth and been obnoxious to them, so evidently Lily didn't protect Tuney from James, just as she hadn't protected Sev from Tuney.
True, in that dinner date, James came off as obnoxious and arrogant, showing off his wealth. Of course, Vernon's behaviour was also cringeworthy but it was James who was responsible for further driving wedge in relationship of Lily and Petunia. Lily herself was quite vicious considering her satisfaction with Harry breaking Petunia's gift which may have been Petunia's reconciliation attempt.
Although Lily's behaviour towards Severus often seems harsh and cold, she may not be aware of this, and Rowling herself may see nothing wrong with it, because according to John Nettleship this hard offhand behaviour really was how the girls treated the boys at Wyedean, Rowling's secondary school.
Yeah, in spirit of canon, JKR intended for Lily to come up as a kind person who was Severus' first experience of love of any kind. But, JKR's own experiences led to her writing Lily in such way and she might even not be aware Lily came off as cold and harsh because JKR considered that as normal behaviour of girls.
Lily liked her friends to be followers and acolytes, and her lovers to be dominant and masterful. Poor Severus was too spiky and independent to make a good acolyte, and too gentle and insecure to be masterful to someone on whom he doted like a puppy, so he fell between two stools. If he had done what James would probably have done if he needed to apologize to Lily, and had just said "Look, I've said I'm sorry and I'm sorry, OK? Don't make a meal of it." she would probably have said "OK" and accepted it, but he didn't have the self-confidence to shrug off his own guilt the way the Marauders do.
This is too much of an assumption about Lily's preference in a man. Lily may have fancied James but she didn't put up with his bullying behaviour and in fact detested it. It took James faking his maturity and changing his approach to win her that took her dating him. James remained arrogant, that's true, she might have accepted that quirk as part of his nature.
one of the reasons the Dursleys disliked Harry was because James had swanked about his wealth and been obnoxious to them, so evidently Lily didn't protect Tuney from James, just as she hadn't protected Sev from Tuney.
True, in that dinner date, James came off as obnoxious and arrogant, showing off his wealth. Of course, Vernon's behaviour was also cringeworthy but it was James who was responsible for further driving wedge in relationship of Lily and Petunia. Lily herself was quite vicious considering her satisfaction with Harry breaking Petunia's gift which may have been Petunia's reconciliation attempt.
Although Lily's behaviour towards Severus often seems harsh and cold, she may not be aware of this, and Rowling herself may see nothing wrong with it, because according to John Nettleship this hard offhand behaviour really was how the girls treated the boys at Wyedean, Rowling's secondary school.
Yeah, in spirit of canon, JKR intended for Lily to come up as a kind person who was Severus' first experience of love of any kind. But, JKR's own experiences led to her writing Lily in such way and she might even not be aware Lily came off as cold and harsh because JKR considered that as normal behaviour of girls.
Quote from Motanul Negru on April 13, 2023, 12:54 pmQuote from Krystal on March 21, 2023, 3:35 amYeah, in spirit of canon, JKR intended for Lily to come up as a kind person who was Severus' first experience of love of any kind. But, JKR's own experiences led to her writing Lily in such way and she might even not be aware Lily came off as cold and harsh because JKR considered that as normal behaviour of girls.
This is basically my working HC of Lily, who is also a native of Cokeworth even if she's higher up socially and economically; and I think it's a behaviour that was reinforced by McGonagall's behaviour.
Apart from it simply being her habit to be sharp with people (see also: Slughorn), she thinks being "harsh but fair" is the best way to deal with Severus and that any sort of "excessive coddling" is going to do more harm than good, or cause him to think he's being mocked or babied. She is probably at least somewhat on point with that last bit.
Though we can see how her Cokeworth recipe for trying to push Severus to be a better version of himself ended up... I personally have no respect for that method and am ready to have it out even with Severus for his over-reliance on it as a teacher.
Quote from Krystal on March 21, 2023, 3:35 am
Yeah, in spirit of canon, JKR intended for Lily to come up as a kind person who was Severus' first experience of love of any kind. But, JKR's own experiences led to her writing Lily in such way and she might even not be aware Lily came off as cold and harsh because JKR considered that as normal behaviour of girls.
This is basically my working HC of Lily, who is also a native of Cokeworth even if she's higher up socially and economically; and I think it's a behaviour that was reinforced by McGonagall's behaviour.
Apart from it simply being her habit to be sharp with people (see also: Slughorn), she thinks being "harsh but fair" is the best way to deal with Severus and that any sort of "excessive coddling" is going to do more harm than good, or cause him to think he's being mocked or babied. She is probably at least somewhat on point with that last bit.
Though we can see how her Cokeworth recipe for trying to push Severus to be a better version of himself ended up... I personally have no respect for that method and am ready to have it out even with Severus for his over-reliance on it as a teacher.
Quote from Ash on April 23, 2023, 5:55 pmI don't have much to say on the topic, but I've always leaned towards disliking Lily. I don't think it was wrong when she cut Snape off for calling her a slur persay. But the fact that she could fall in love with someone as cruel as James says a lot about her character ... I've never been in such a situation but it makes me so depressed thinking about anyone I thought a friend in any capacity falling in love with someone who assaulted and tormented me, and then joining in on the abuse. It's kind of hard to see her as anything but a villain at that point.
I don't have much to say on the topic, but I've always leaned towards disliking Lily. I don't think it was wrong when she cut Snape off for calling her a slur persay. But the fact that she could fall in love with someone as cruel as James says a lot about her character ... I've never been in such a situation but it makes me so depressed thinking about anyone I thought a friend in any capacity falling in love with someone who assaulted and tormented me, and then joining in on the abuse. It's kind of hard to see her as anything but a villain at that point.
Quote from FIQ on April 23, 2023, 8:46 pmYeah I always felt that the hold-up wrt Snape and Lily had very little to do with Lily not liking him and more about who she chose instead. Sure, it sucks, but it's something you can move on from, plenty of fish in the sea and all that if you are actually looking for romance. But how would Snape feel that out of all people Lily could end up with, it's James of all people? She's basically telling Snape indirectly that what James did to him doesn't matter. To Snape, it might seem that she perhaps didn't put any value in their friendship at all...
Yeah I always felt that the hold-up wrt Snape and Lily had very little to do with Lily not liking him and more about who she chose instead. Sure, it sucks, but it's something you can move on from, plenty of fish in the sea and all that if you are actually looking for romance. But how would Snape feel that out of all people Lily could end up with, it's James of all people? She's basically telling Snape indirectly that what James did to him doesn't matter. To Snape, it might seem that she perhaps didn't put any value in their friendship at all...
Quote from Naaga on April 23, 2023, 11:06 pmI completely agree with you @akaur007.
I also get your point @fredriq. I also understand that my disliking for Lily had more to do with her marrying James, someone who tormented and made life hell for Snape and I am saying that as someone who doesn't ship Lily with Snape.
Sure, if she had any moral decency (which her stans argue and make her a Saintly figure), she shouldn't have hurt her former best friend like to that. While she was not obligated to chose Snape or wait for him, it doesn't mean there was only James Potter available in the market, plenty of fishes in the sea.
This Saint! Lily is often used by marauder stans and Lily stans to whitewash James and demonify Snape because the so called perfect Lily choosing James mean he was really good and leaving Snape mean he was really irredeemable.
I completely agree with you @akaur007.
I also get your point @fredriq. I also understand that my disliking for Lily had more to do with her marrying James, someone who tormented and made life hell for Snape and I am saying that as someone who doesn't ship Lily with Snape.
Sure, if she had any moral decency (which her stans argue and make her a Saintly figure), she shouldn't have hurt her former best friend like to that. While she was not obligated to chose Snape or wait for him, it doesn't mean there was only James Potter available in the market, plenty of fishes in the sea.
This Saint! Lily is often used by marauder stans and Lily stans to whitewash James and demonify Snape because the so called perfect Lily choosing James mean he was really good and leaving Snape mean he was really irredeemable.
Quote from TimeLadyJamie on May 27, 2023, 10:56 pmAs a fan of Lily as well, I gotta say I do like that meta.
While Lily can be a kind and caring person, she is by no means a saint. I definitely wouldn't call her that! She is human like everyone else, and that means that while she does has her strengths, she also has her flaws.
Since we only ever get to see and know about her from other people's POVs, I've always made it a habit with my writing to try to pick apart her psyche and try to understand why she is the way she is (and does the things she does.)
While I do think that she did care for Severus as a friend, even a bit after their friendship ended, I do also agree that the one thing I don't like that she does is end up marrying her ex-best friend's bully! My only reasoning/guess for that one, which I've seen other fans explain too, is that James manipulated her, and he's been doing it for sometime. Even before seventh year. I think he started getting into her head sometime before the werewolf scene. It was obvious he wanted to start causing a discord between Snape and Lily.
Severus wanted her to see how the Marauders (especially James) weren't as great as they let everyone think. But James always wanted to be seen as a great hero.
I might just write my own meta on this sometime too. XD
As a fan of Lily as well, I gotta say I do like that meta.
While Lily can be a kind and caring person, she is by no means a saint. I definitely wouldn't call her that! She is human like everyone else, and that means that while she does has her strengths, she also has her flaws.
Since we only ever get to see and know about her from other people's POVs, I've always made it a habit with my writing to try to pick apart her psyche and try to understand why she is the way she is (and does the things she does.)
While I do think that she did care for Severus as a friend, even a bit after their friendship ended, I do also agree that the one thing I don't like that she does is end up marrying her ex-best friend's bully! My only reasoning/guess for that one, which I've seen other fans explain too, is that James manipulated her, and he's been doing it for sometime. Even before seventh year. I think he started getting into her head sometime before the werewolf scene. It was obvious he wanted to start causing a discord between Snape and Lily.
Severus wanted her to see how the Marauders (especially James) weren't as great as they let everyone think. But James always wanted to be seen as a great hero.
I might just write my own meta on this sometime too. XD
Quote from The Gestalt Prince on May 27, 2023, 11:00 pm@timeladyjamie I've written general outlines of both Lily and James and how they're characterized by Rowling, if you need a convenient point of reference. We'd love to see your meta on them!
@timeladyjamie I've written general outlines of both Lily and James and how they're characterized by Rowling, if you need a convenient point of reference. We'd love to see your meta on them!
Quote from Heatherlly on May 28, 2023, 2:27 amQuote from TimeLadyJamie on May 27, 2023, 10:56 pmI do also agree that the one thing I don't like that she does is end up marrying her ex-best friend's bully! My only reasoning/guess for that one, which I've seen other fans explain too, is that James manipulated her, and he's been doing it for sometime. Even before seventh year. I think he started getting into her head sometime before the werewolf scene. It was obvious he wanted to start causing a discord between Snape and Lily.
This is why it bothers me when people attack Lily for marrying James. In short, it feels like victim blaming. I know Snily writers (myself included) sometimes lean into the "James was an abuser" trope, but even in canon, there's no shortage of evidence. These are not isolated incidents, but an established pattern of manipulative/deceitful/coercive behavior, underscored by a deep sense of entitlement. The entitlement itself is perhaps the biggest warning sign – James does what he does because (in his mind) he has every right to do it. He wants Lily, so he'll do what he has to do to get her. Hurting others (or even Lily herself) is irrelevant as long as it brings him closer to his goal.
I can't speak to Lily's mindset when they started dating in seventh year, though we do know he was actively deceiving her. We know she was fooled into believing he'd become a better, more mature person, one who (as far as she knew) regretted his past behavior. It's also worth noting that this was more than a year after SWM. That gave James plenty of time to wear her down, and he surely would've ramped up his efforts once Snape was out of the way. And why wouldn't he? The end of Snape and Lily's friendship gave him several advantages, including:
- Lily would've been lonely (hence more vulnerable) after losing her best friend. That's true even if they were drifting apart prior to SWM – there's a huge difference between having problems with someone and being completely cut off from them.
- It was easier for James to hide his jealousy/animosity toward Snape. He no longer had to go through (i.e. bully) Snape to get to Lily, paving the way for more neutral (and eventually positive) interactions.
- James was able to control the narrative.
On that last point…
One of the worst things about SWM is that it essentially shoved Lily into an echo chamber. She loses access to Snape's point of view, and he's no longer in any position to (however imperfectly) defend himself. Suddenly, everything is one-sided, and all the things that might've helped her connect with Snape or see him in a more sympathetic light are gone. No conversations, no shared memories, no chance to look into his eyes and see his humanity. Everything that sustained their connection is gone, and in its place, what's left?
What's left is a gap, one that James was in a perfect position to fill. Not just James, but the other Gryffindors, none of whom would've had a single thing to say about Snape (quite the opposite). Of course, Lily's been dealing with that for years, but now she no longer has access to a different perspective. All she's hearing is bad stuff, with nothing good to balance it out.
I'm sure James took full advantage of that. As mentioned, he loved to portray himself as a hero… what better way to do that than leaning into his "good" qualities while emphasizing Snape's bad ones? It would be difficult to do, considering that Lily is already convinced that Snape has been lost to the "dark side". James wanting to fight the people who want to hurt her rather than joining them? I imagine that was pretty compelling, and in fairness to James, it wasn't even a lie.
In conclusion…
"Lily betrayed Severus by marrying his bully" is an oversimplification, one that is deeply unfair to her. James's manipulations/abusive behavior were almost certainly a factor, but even if we put that aside, her choice is completely justifiable. It's awful that James bullied Severus, but what Severus did to Lily (however naïvely/unintentionally) was far worse. He more or less admitted that he wanted to become a Death Eater, joining forces with those who posed a direct threat to Lily's freedom, potentially even her life.
Of course, we can see a lot more in hindsight, but Lily didn't have that luxury. She was left to assume that Severus was positioning himself as her enemy, which would've felt like the deepest sort of betrayal. To suggest that she owed him something, that she was betraying him by getting involved with James? We all dislike James, and rightfully so, but objectively speaking, his actions were minor compared to what Lily thought (rightly or wrongly) Severus was going to do.
Having said that, I think it's notable that James felt he had to hide his continued bullying in order to date Lily. That suggests that despite everything, despite Severus's betrayal and all the negative things she must've heard thereafter, she still cared enough that she didn't want to see him hurt. To me, that proves that she wasn't some heartless bitch who stabbed him in the back, just as he wasn't a monster who wanted to rid the world of Muggleborns.
That's the point, really. You can't demonize Lily without fundamentally misunderstanding their relationship. It didn't end because one of them was good and the other was bad, nor is there a hero or villain. The tragedy is in their misunderstandings and mistakes, two flawed but relatively decent people who are far too young to navigate such a difficult situation. It's not a lack of love or deliberate betrayal that drives them apart… it's poor communication and the inability to see from the other's point of view.
Got a bit off track there, but yeah… my original point was that James sucks. 😂
Quote from TimeLadyJamie on May 27, 2023, 10:56 pmI might just write my own meta on this sometime too. XD
If you do, I'd love to post it on the blog/front page. We need more content over there, and I'm sure whatever you wrote would be fabulous. 💚💚💚
Quote from TimeLadyJamie on May 27, 2023, 10:56 pmI do also agree that the one thing I don't like that she does is end up marrying her ex-best friend's bully! My only reasoning/guess for that one, which I've seen other fans explain too, is that James manipulated her, and he's been doing it for sometime. Even before seventh year. I think he started getting into her head sometime before the werewolf scene. It was obvious he wanted to start causing a discord between Snape and Lily.
This is why it bothers me when people attack Lily for marrying James. In short, it feels like victim blaming. I know Snily writers (myself included) sometimes lean into the "James was an abuser" trope, but even in canon, there's no shortage of evidence. These are not isolated incidents, but an established pattern of manipulative/deceitful/coercive behavior, underscored by a deep sense of entitlement. The entitlement itself is perhaps the biggest warning sign – James does what he does because (in his mind) he has every right to do it. He wants Lily, so he'll do what he has to do to get her. Hurting others (or even Lily herself) is irrelevant as long as it brings him closer to his goal.
I can't speak to Lily's mindset when they started dating in seventh year, though we do know he was actively deceiving her. We know she was fooled into believing he'd become a better, more mature person, one who (as far as she knew) regretted his past behavior. It's also worth noting that this was more than a year after SWM. That gave James plenty of time to wear her down, and he surely would've ramped up his efforts once Snape was out of the way. And why wouldn't he? The end of Snape and Lily's friendship gave him several advantages, including:
- Lily would've been lonely (hence more vulnerable) after losing her best friend. That's true even if they were drifting apart prior to SWM – there's a huge difference between having problems with someone and being completely cut off from them.
- It was easier for James to hide his jealousy/animosity toward Snape. He no longer had to go through (i.e. bully) Snape to get to Lily, paving the way for more neutral (and eventually positive) interactions.
- James was able to control the narrative.
On that last point…
One of the worst things about SWM is that it essentially shoved Lily into an echo chamber. She loses access to Snape's point of view, and he's no longer in any position to (however imperfectly) defend himself. Suddenly, everything is one-sided, and all the things that might've helped her connect with Snape or see him in a more sympathetic light are gone. No conversations, no shared memories, no chance to look into his eyes and see his humanity. Everything that sustained their connection is gone, and in its place, what's left?
What's left is a gap, one that James was in a perfect position to fill. Not just James, but the other Gryffindors, none of whom would've had a single thing to say about Snape (quite the opposite). Of course, Lily's been dealing with that for years, but now she no longer has access to a different perspective. All she's hearing is bad stuff, with nothing good to balance it out.
I'm sure James took full advantage of that. As mentioned, he loved to portray himself as a hero… what better way to do that than leaning into his "good" qualities while emphasizing Snape's bad ones? It would be difficult to do, considering that Lily is already convinced that Snape has been lost to the "dark side". James wanting to fight the people who want to hurt her rather than joining them? I imagine that was pretty compelling, and in fairness to James, it wasn't even a lie.
In conclusion…
"Lily betrayed Severus by marrying his bully" is an oversimplification, one that is deeply unfair to her. James's manipulations/abusive behavior were almost certainly a factor, but even if we put that aside, her choice is completely justifiable. It's awful that James bullied Severus, but what Severus did to Lily (however naïvely/unintentionally) was far worse. He more or less admitted that he wanted to become a Death Eater, joining forces with those who posed a direct threat to Lily's freedom, potentially even her life.
Of course, we can see a lot more in hindsight, but Lily didn't have that luxury. She was left to assume that Severus was positioning himself as her enemy, which would've felt like the deepest sort of betrayal. To suggest that she owed him something, that she was betraying him by getting involved with James? We all dislike James, and rightfully so, but objectively speaking, his actions were minor compared to what Lily thought (rightly or wrongly) Severus was going to do.
Having said that, I think it's notable that James felt he had to hide his continued bullying in order to date Lily. That suggests that despite everything, despite Severus's betrayal and all the negative things she must've heard thereafter, she still cared enough that she didn't want to see him hurt. To me, that proves that she wasn't some heartless bitch who stabbed him in the back, just as he wasn't a monster who wanted to rid the world of Muggleborns.
That's the point, really. You can't demonize Lily without fundamentally misunderstanding their relationship. It didn't end because one of them was good and the other was bad, nor is there a hero or villain. The tragedy is in their misunderstandings and mistakes, two flawed but relatively decent people who are far too young to navigate such a difficult situation. It's not a lack of love or deliberate betrayal that drives them apart… it's poor communication and the inability to see from the other's point of view.
Got a bit off track there, but yeah… my original point was that James sucks. 😂
Quote from TimeLadyJamie on May 27, 2023, 10:56 pmI might just write my own meta on this sometime too. XD
If you do, I'd love to post it on the blog/front page. We need more content over there, and I'm sure whatever you wrote would be fabulous. 💚💚💚
Quote from Dark Angel on May 28, 2023, 2:34 amThe idea that Lily is a saint mostly comes from the glorification of a mother's love in canon. Lily chose death for her child, Narcissa begs Severus to make sure Draco doesn't fail his task and lies to Voldemort about Harry's death and Mrs. Weasley's fierce protectiveness when Bellatrix endangers her daughter are all examples of how there is no greater power than a mother's love.
There also seem to be a lot of tell but don't show instances in canon. We are told James matured and became a better person but don't see much of a concrete proof for that, we just accept it because he died protecting his family. We are told Lily is kind and perfect and because she sacrifices herself for her baby, we aren't supposed to question that either.
The truth is that all these characters are neither entirely good or bad; James was a good friend to Sirius and Remus but he was also a bully; Lily was ready to befriend the poor kid from the bad side of town but she also didn't hesitate to retaliate by pointing out his greatest insecurity when he lashed out at her although she could have simply walked away and left him to deal with his bullies alone.
Regarding Lily's choice to marry her ex-best friend's bully, it's an example of what Germans call "Was sich neckt, das liebt sich," which roughly translates to lovers quarrel with each other. Rowling does present a rather old fashioned worldview and James' incessant behavior is a (back then considered) normal attempt at getting Lily's attention and can be compared to a little boy pulling a girl's hair so she notices him and plays with him. In the past it would simply be called "boys will be boys."
Lily acting like she can't stand James just to marry him is also an old-fashioned cliche. She is supposedly playing hard to get. I remember watching some movies in the 90s that often featured a supposed joke of how when a woman says yes she means yes and when she says no she still means yes but try harder. Another reason why Lily ends up with James is because of traditional expectations of a spouse: a husband needs to be a provider. Severus and James have hated each other ever since their first train ride to Hogwarts because both have what the other lacks; James is handsome, rich, from a well known and loving family while Severus has Lily. I guess half of James' infatuation with Lily is due to her rejecting him at first, I imagine he is a spoiled child that's used to getting what he wants so he does everything possible to get Lily and because, as established above, Lily isn't really rejecting him. I think Rowling once said that Snape joined the Death Eaters to impress Lily; obviously she won't be impressed by their racist politics but maybe Snape's intention was to climb the social ladder and get more powerful to be a suitable match, to be able to compete with Potter. There was once a reddit discussion where someone mentioned that Snape was deliberately portrayed as an emasculate man. He wears his mother's shirt as a kid, has long hair and a hooked nose and is a potions prodigy. His appearance and his talent in potions are traditionally associated with witches. Meanwhile, James is a handsome athlete and supposed to be the epitome of virility. Add to that the mentality of the past: Mr. Right is Mr. Cash, a good husband is the one who can provide for his wife and also act as a protector. James has money and a pureblood name, both of which Severus lacks; James died facing the Dark Lord, Snape had Lily killed in an attempt to be useful to him. Snape fails to meet the traditional expectations of a husband.
I do have to say something against the claim that Lily suppressed an "affectionate" smile while her friend is being stripped. Any decent friend would be horrified to witness such a thing, if there was any sort of affection in the smile it was aimed towards Potter and his antics.
The idea that Lily is a saint mostly comes from the glorification of a mother's love in canon. Lily chose death for her child, Narcissa begs Severus to make sure Draco doesn't fail his task and lies to Voldemort about Harry's death and Mrs. Weasley's fierce protectiveness when Bellatrix endangers her daughter are all examples of how there is no greater power than a mother's love.
There also seem to be a lot of tell but don't show instances in canon. We are told James matured and became a better person but don't see much of a concrete proof for that, we just accept it because he died protecting his family. We are told Lily is kind and perfect and because she sacrifices herself for her baby, we aren't supposed to question that either.
The truth is that all these characters are neither entirely good or bad; James was a good friend to Sirius and Remus but he was also a bully; Lily was ready to befriend the poor kid from the bad side of town but she also didn't hesitate to retaliate by pointing out his greatest insecurity when he lashed out at her although she could have simply walked away and left him to deal with his bullies alone.
Regarding Lily's choice to marry her ex-best friend's bully, it's an example of what Germans call "Was sich neckt, das liebt sich," which roughly translates to lovers quarrel with each other. Rowling does present a rather old fashioned worldview and James' incessant behavior is a (back then considered) normal attempt at getting Lily's attention and can be compared to a little boy pulling a girl's hair so she notices him and plays with him. In the past it would simply be called "boys will be boys."
Lily acting like she can't stand James just to marry him is also an old-fashioned cliche. She is supposedly playing hard to get. I remember watching some movies in the 90s that often featured a supposed joke of how when a woman says yes she means yes and when she says no she still means yes but try harder. Another reason why Lily ends up with James is because of traditional expectations of a spouse: a husband needs to be a provider. Severus and James have hated each other ever since their first train ride to Hogwarts because both have what the other lacks; James is handsome, rich, from a well known and loving family while Severus has Lily. I guess half of James' infatuation with Lily is due to her rejecting him at first, I imagine he is a spoiled child that's used to getting what he wants so he does everything possible to get Lily and because, as established above, Lily isn't really rejecting him. I think Rowling once said that Snape joined the Death Eaters to impress Lily; obviously she won't be impressed by their racist politics but maybe Snape's intention was to climb the social ladder and get more powerful to be a suitable match, to be able to compete with Potter. There was once a reddit discussion where someone mentioned that Snape was deliberately portrayed as an emasculate man. He wears his mother's shirt as a kid, has long hair and a hooked nose and is a potions prodigy. His appearance and his talent in potions are traditionally associated with witches. Meanwhile, James is a handsome athlete and supposed to be the epitome of virility. Add to that the mentality of the past: Mr. Right is Mr. Cash, a good husband is the one who can provide for his wife and also act as a protector. James has money and a pureblood name, both of which Severus lacks; James died facing the Dark Lord, Snape had Lily killed in an attempt to be useful to him. Snape fails to meet the traditional expectations of a husband.
I do have to say something against the claim that Lily suppressed an "affectionate" smile while her friend is being stripped. Any decent friend would be horrified to witness such a thing, if there was any sort of affection in the smile it was aimed towards Potter and his antics.