How Functional and Healthy Are the Canon Pairings?
Quote from The Gestalt Prince on January 13, 2023, 3:38 amI've made analyses on certain characters and relationships in the past, but for this post, I think I'll need help in fleshing out the information on the major canon pairings, specifically when it comes to the character of each... character. For this, I will only be mentioning end-series couples involving major characters. In no particular order:
Harry/Ginny: not a lot of buildup to this pairing aside from Ginny's crush on Harry (as far as I remember).
Hermione/Ron: balance each other out in certain ways but behave horribly when jealous (specifically regarding each other's romantic interests). Ron doesn't correct to this sort of behavior (for the time being, until someone finds something in the books to show that he does).
- Credit to @mmlf for pointing this out.
- Credit to @heatherlly for pointing out Ron's tendencies to only care about what Hermione does when it relates to him or Harry.
James/Lily (because without them, Harry wouldn't exist): all I'll say here is that their relationship is based on the lie that James stopped his behavior. And I will refer any readers to the two posts I made on the characters of James and Lily.
Remus/Tonks: for now, let me remind any readers that Remus tried to bail on a pregnant Tonks to go Horcrux hunting, because he was afraid of what would become of his child.
- Credit to @naaga for saying, "Lupin didn't feel comfortable and ready for the relationship and was coerced by the others for it. Then he ran away at first sign of trouble after the pregnancy and it took Harry calling out his bullshit to make him go back to her".
- Regarding the coercion aspect, this shows that Remus can't put his foot down and risk disappointing others, and ends up disappointing them even more when he tries to get out of what he didn't want.
Arthur/Molly
- Credit to @naaga for saying "they care for each other and their children, strike a nice balance with each other and have lasted together for a long time and would do so till the end".
Lucius/Narcissa: both blood purists, both purebloods, both Slytherins, both with ties to the Death Eaters, and both love their son and will do as much as a Slytherin would do to keep him safe. While they're not good people, they're good to each other and their family.
Bill/Fleur (minor): honorable mention for being healthy.
- Credit to @naaga for pointing out that "Bill got scarred by the Grayback and Fleur stood by him and said that she is pretty enough for both of them".
I'll update this specific post once I have a better idea of the above characters.
I've made analyses on certain characters and relationships in the past, but for this post, I think I'll need help in fleshing out the information on the major canon pairings, specifically when it comes to the character of each... character. For this, I will only be mentioning end-series couples involving major characters. In no particular order:
Harry/Ginny: not a lot of buildup to this pairing aside from Ginny's crush on Harry (as far as I remember).
Hermione/Ron: balance each other out in certain ways but behave horribly when jealous (specifically regarding each other's romantic interests). Ron doesn't correct to this sort of behavior (for the time being, until someone finds something in the books to show that he does).
- Credit to @mmlf for pointing this out.
- Credit to @heatherlly for pointing out Ron's tendencies to only care about what Hermione does when it relates to him or Harry.
James/Lily (because without them, Harry wouldn't exist): all I'll say here is that their relationship is based on the lie that James stopped his behavior. And I will refer any readers to the two posts I made on the characters of James and Lily.
Remus/Tonks: for now, let me remind any readers that Remus tried to bail on a pregnant Tonks to go Horcrux hunting, because he was afraid of what would become of his child.
- Credit to @naaga for saying, "Lupin didn't feel comfortable and ready for the relationship and was coerced by the others for it. Then he ran away at first sign of trouble after the pregnancy and it took Harry calling out his bullshit to make him go back to her".
- Regarding the coercion aspect, this shows that Remus can't put his foot down and risk disappointing others, and ends up disappointing them even more when he tries to get out of what he didn't want.
Arthur/Molly
- Credit to @naaga for saying "they care for each other and their children, strike a nice balance with each other and have lasted together for a long time and would do so till the end".
Lucius/Narcissa: both blood purists, both purebloods, both Slytherins, both with ties to the Death Eaters, and both love their son and will do as much as a Slytherin would do to keep him safe. While they're not good people, they're good to each other and their family.
Bill/Fleur (minor): honorable mention for being healthy.
- Credit to @naaga for pointing out that "Bill got scarred by the Grayback and Fleur stood by him and said that she is pretty enough for both of them".
I'll update this specific post once I have a better idea of the above characters.
Quote from Heatherlly on January 13, 2023, 3:48 amOne more: Bill and Fleur
They may not be major characters, but based on what we know, I personally think they're one of the healthier/more functional couples in the series.
One more: Bill and Fleur
They may not be major characters, but based on what we know, I personally think they're one of the healthier/more functional couples in the series.
Quote from mmlf on January 14, 2023, 6:49 amI guess I'll go ahead with some of my usual complaints against Hermione and Ron as a romantic pairing. Everything I say is heavily influenced by the fact that, aside from Severus Snape, Hermione Granger is my favourite character in the books.
I actually like Ron Weasley. I finished the first book last week, and I thought that Rowling did a good job with establishing his distinctive voice and attitude. I also think he serves as a valuable counter-weight to Hermione's swottishness. It was hilarious when he yelled at her as she panicked over how to free Harry and Ron from the magical ropes.
It's also clear, as I've read in several articles, that Hermione and Ron spend a lot more time together outside of Hogwarts than Harry does with either. This has been used to explain how Hermione and Ron became a romantic pairing; they would have had this time to bond outside of the ordinary narrative, which is from Harry's perspective.
I don't really care that Hermione and Ron argue a lot, though that's not really a good sign for any long-term relationship.
The two incidences that soured my mind against a romantic Ron/Hermione were his outburst against Hermione at the Triwizard Ball and his even nastier meltdown in Book 6. I don't mind the fact that Ron did these things; I do mind the fact that he does not appear to address his consistent problem of losing his temper and making vindictive and nasty remarks as a result. I think Luna Lovegood pointed this out.
It's fine with me that Ron is jealous of Hermione getting attention from Viktor Krum. It actually makes perfect sense, given Ron's chronic insecurity and his idol worship of Krum. The problem is, once again, that he cannot keep on losing his temper and saying vindictive things as a result of that jealousy. Unless I am mistaken, this issue is never addressed-- but I am still going to have to read through Book VII more carefully and check.
Humiliating Hermione in front of an entire class, making her cry and leave the lesson deserved an apology and some kind of recompense; getting poisoned and then muttering Hermione's name wasn't really it, even if Hermione was understandably shaken and willing to forgive him. But that is my opinion.
I also think that Hermione's bird stunt was vindictive and downright childish, so she was far from blameless.
I don't mind them being friends, though I think that Hermione is a better friend to Ron than vice-versa. Harry and Hermione have a far more stable friendship by comparison, as demonstrated also by Books 4 and 6.
But I just think that a pairing stretches credibility too much.
I guess I'll go ahead with some of my usual complaints against Hermione and Ron as a romantic pairing. Everything I say is heavily influenced by the fact that, aside from Severus Snape, Hermione Granger is my favourite character in the books.
I actually like Ron Weasley. I finished the first book last week, and I thought that Rowling did a good job with establishing his distinctive voice and attitude. I also think he serves as a valuable counter-weight to Hermione's swottishness. It was hilarious when he yelled at her as she panicked over how to free Harry and Ron from the magical ropes.
It's also clear, as I've read in several articles, that Hermione and Ron spend a lot more time together outside of Hogwarts than Harry does with either. This has been used to explain how Hermione and Ron became a romantic pairing; they would have had this time to bond outside of the ordinary narrative, which is from Harry's perspective.
I don't really care that Hermione and Ron argue a lot, though that's not really a good sign for any long-term relationship.
The two incidences that soured my mind against a romantic Ron/Hermione were his outburst against Hermione at the Triwizard Ball and his even nastier meltdown in Book 6. I don't mind the fact that Ron did these things; I do mind the fact that he does not appear to address his consistent problem of losing his temper and making vindictive and nasty remarks as a result. I think Luna Lovegood pointed this out.
It's fine with me that Ron is jealous of Hermione getting attention from Viktor Krum. It actually makes perfect sense, given Ron's chronic insecurity and his idol worship of Krum. The problem is, once again, that he cannot keep on losing his temper and saying vindictive things as a result of that jealousy. Unless I am mistaken, this issue is never addressed-- but I am still going to have to read through Book VII more carefully and check.
Humiliating Hermione in front of an entire class, making her cry and leave the lesson deserved an apology and some kind of recompense; getting poisoned and then muttering Hermione's name wasn't really it, even if Hermione was understandably shaken and willing to forgive him. But that is my opinion.
I also think that Hermione's bird stunt was vindictive and downright childish, so she was far from blameless.
I don't mind them being friends, though I think that Hermione is a better friend to Ron than vice-versa. Harry and Hermione have a far more stable friendship by comparison, as demonstrated also by Books 4 and 6.
But I just think that a pairing stretches credibility too much.
Quote from Heatherlly on January 15, 2023, 1:47 amGreat points, MMLF. Ron does have a massive jealousy problem, which is never properly addressed. I'll also acknowledge the point about them spending more time together outside of school, though from my perspective, that's largely irrelevant. I just see them as fundamentally incompatible, not helped by Ron's selfishness and immaturity.
One of the things that bothers me about their relationship is his conditional respect. In other words, he's all about her magical talent/interest in academia when it benefits him, but when it doesn't, he mocks her and can even be downright contemptuous. He doesn't take the things she cares about seriously for her sake… if it's not about him (or Harry), those things are unimportant/annoying.
Think about that in terms of their future. What would their life together look like in say, 10 or 15 years? It's safe to assume that Hermione would still be deeply interested in her own education. How would Ron react to that when at that point, it would have nothing to do with him/Harry? Granted, he'd hopefully be more mature by then, but would be supportive/share her interest? Would she be able to engage with him on those topics without him getting bored or impatient? I can't see that, which makes me sad for her.
This is one of the reasons why I prefer her and Snape as a pairing. Under the right circumstances, I think he'd be much more likely to understand and even nurture that side of her personality. If you compare what she and Snape were like in school, there really are a lot of parallels… if she'd been 20 years older and Lily hadn't been involved, it's easy to see them gravitating toward each other as students.
Of course, they could've never been a pairing in canon for multiple reasons. I totally get that, though I wish (if she had to pair Hermione off at all), JKR had made more of an effort in choosing her partner. Ron might've been the obvious choice, but that doesn't mean he was the best one. It would've been nice if she'd introduced say, a Ravenclaw character who could've filled that role.
Point is, not everyone has to be a Gryffindor, and Hermione deserved a life outside of Harry and Ron. Not that I don't enjoy their dynamic, but (objectively speaking) it can be dysfunctional and codependent.
That's the other point I wanted to make. With Harry and especially Ron, Hermione is often put in the position of acting like a parent, a problem solver, cleaning up their messes and keeping them on track. She's the one who has to be the voice of reason, reining in their worst impulses, essentially mothering them when there's no one else around to do it. That's not fair to her, even as a friend, but it would be even worse in a partnership/marriage. We see hints of this with Molly and Arthur, but I have every reason to think it would be way worse with Hermione and Ron.
That's the biggest reason why I don't like them as a couple. Hermione deserves an equal, someone who can handle their own bullshit without putting it all on her.
Great points, MMLF. Ron does have a massive jealousy problem, which is never properly addressed. I'll also acknowledge the point about them spending more time together outside of school, though from my perspective, that's largely irrelevant. I just see them as fundamentally incompatible, not helped by Ron's selfishness and immaturity.
One of the things that bothers me about their relationship is his conditional respect. In other words, he's all about her magical talent/interest in academia when it benefits him, but when it doesn't, he mocks her and can even be downright contemptuous. He doesn't take the things she cares about seriously for her sake… if it's not about him (or Harry), those things are unimportant/annoying.
Think about that in terms of their future. What would their life together look like in say, 10 or 15 years? It's safe to assume that Hermione would still be deeply interested in her own education. How would Ron react to that when at that point, it would have nothing to do with him/Harry? Granted, he'd hopefully be more mature by then, but would be supportive/share her interest? Would she be able to engage with him on those topics without him getting bored or impatient? I can't see that, which makes me sad for her.
This is one of the reasons why I prefer her and Snape as a pairing. Under the right circumstances, I think he'd be much more likely to understand and even nurture that side of her personality. If you compare what she and Snape were like in school, there really are a lot of parallels… if she'd been 20 years older and Lily hadn't been involved, it's easy to see them gravitating toward each other as students.
Of course, they could've never been a pairing in canon for multiple reasons. I totally get that, though I wish (if she had to pair Hermione off at all), JKR had made more of an effort in choosing her partner. Ron might've been the obvious choice, but that doesn't mean he was the best one. It would've been nice if she'd introduced say, a Ravenclaw character who could've filled that role.
Point is, not everyone has to be a Gryffindor, and Hermione deserved a life outside of Harry and Ron. Not that I don't enjoy their dynamic, but (objectively speaking) it can be dysfunctional and codependent.
That's the other point I wanted to make. With Harry and especially Ron, Hermione is often put in the position of acting like a parent, a problem solver, cleaning up their messes and keeping them on track. She's the one who has to be the voice of reason, reining in their worst impulses, essentially mothering them when there's no one else around to do it. That's not fair to her, even as a friend, but it would be even worse in a partnership/marriage. We see hints of this with Molly and Arthur, but I have every reason to think it would be way worse with Hermione and Ron.
That's the biggest reason why I don't like them as a couple. Hermione deserves an equal, someone who can handle their own bullshit without putting it all on her.
Quote from Naaga on March 2, 2023, 4:04 amMy thoughts on the canon pairings and their viability:
Arthur/Molly - Seemed the perfect pairing, they care for each other and their children, strike a nice balance with each other and have lasted together for a long time and would do so till the end.
Bill/Fleur - A good one, the thing that sealed it for me was after Bill got scarred by the Grayback and Fleur stood by him and said that she is pretty enough for both of them.
Lupin/Tonks - This spells like trouble. I felt red flags from both sides of the relationship. Lupin didn't feel comfortable and ready for the relationship and was coerced by the others for it. Then he ran away at first sign of trouble after the pregnancy and it took Harry calling out his bullshit to make him go back to her. In the scenario that they both happened to survive, I don't foresee their relationship lasting longer.
James/Lily - Another pairing with the red flags. James lied, cheated and manipulated to get into the relationship where he didn't actually change as a person, just changed his methods. Marrying just after the high school with just one year of relationship and having a kid immediately seemed everything was rushed and forced. In the event they survived the Godric's Hollow, I don't forsee their relationship lasting long.
Ron/Hermione - While they seem a good relationship at a glance, they have issues as pointed by @mmlf and @heatherlly and relationship could go either way.
Harry/Ginny - Didn't seem to have problems, still going good as seen in canon.
My thoughts on the canon pairings and their viability:
Arthur/Molly - Seemed the perfect pairing, they care for each other and their children, strike a nice balance with each other and have lasted together for a long time and would do so till the end.
Bill/Fleur - A good one, the thing that sealed it for me was after Bill got scarred by the Grayback and Fleur stood by him and said that she is pretty enough for both of them.
Lupin/Tonks - This spells like trouble. I felt red flags from both sides of the relationship. Lupin didn't feel comfortable and ready for the relationship and was coerced by the others for it. Then he ran away at first sign of trouble after the pregnancy and it took Harry calling out his bullshit to make him go back to her. In the scenario that they both happened to survive, I don't foresee their relationship lasting longer.
James/Lily - Another pairing with the red flags. James lied, cheated and manipulated to get into the relationship where he didn't actually change as a person, just changed his methods. Marrying just after the high school with just one year of relationship and having a kid immediately seemed everything was rushed and forced. In the event they survived the Godric's Hollow, I don't forsee their relationship lasting long.
Ron/Hermione - While they seem a good relationship at a glance, they have issues as pointed by @mmlf and @heatherlly and relationship could go either way.
Harry/Ginny - Didn't seem to have problems, still going good as seen in canon.
Quote from Naaga on March 29, 2023, 8:09 amMy take on some other canon pairings:
Lucius/Narcissa: They seemed loving family people without any issues between them and cared for their son and each other despite being narratively on the dark side. Can't say more than that because we were limited to Harry's POV who didn't see more than what we know.
Ted/Andromeda: Loving couple who loved each other and their daughter. Andromeda ran away from Blacks and defied their ideology by marrying a muggleborn, stayed away from the Blacks and lost her relationship with her sisters. Ultimately couple seems alright to me who raised their daughter well and ultimately fought for the light side.
George/Angelina: Seemed weird to me that George married the ex-girlfriend of his brother. Otherwise, there is no issue.
Draco/Astoria: Seemed alright, Draco loved his wife. Lucius and Narcissa Malfoy had "disapproved" of Draco's choice to take her as a wife, but he chose her anyway and stood up to both of them. This was something which Astoria once told her son "was one of the most courageous things she'd ever seen". Frail, and knowing she was not destined for old age due to her ancestor's blood-borne curse, Astoria longed for a child so that Draco, after her inevitable death, would not be alone. She was successful in producing a child, despite Draco telling her that he didn't care if the Malfoy family ended with him, but the pregnancy greatly weakened her and the family vanished into seclusion when Scorpius was born. After Scorpius' birth, Astoria refused to teach her son the pure-blooded belief that Muggles were scum. Lucius and Narcissa, therefore found her a somewhat disappointing daughter-in-law; family gatherings were, as a result, often fraught with tension. Ultimately, they are a good couple.
My take on some other canon pairings:
Lucius/Narcissa: They seemed loving family people without any issues between them and cared for their son and each other despite being narratively on the dark side. Can't say more than that because we were limited to Harry's POV who didn't see more than what we know.
Ted/Andromeda: Loving couple who loved each other and their daughter. Andromeda ran away from Blacks and defied their ideology by marrying a muggleborn, stayed away from the Blacks and lost her relationship with her sisters. Ultimately couple seems alright to me who raised their daughter well and ultimately fought for the light side.
George/Angelina: Seemed weird to me that George married the ex-girlfriend of his brother. Otherwise, there is no issue.
Draco/Astoria: Seemed alright, Draco loved his wife. Lucius and Narcissa Malfoy had "disapproved" of Draco's choice to take her as a wife, but he chose her anyway and stood up to both of them. This was something which Astoria once told her son "was one of the most courageous things she'd ever seen". Frail, and knowing she was not destined for old age due to her ancestor's blood-borne curse, Astoria longed for a child so that Draco, after her inevitable death, would not be alone. She was successful in producing a child, despite Draco telling her that he didn't care if the Malfoy family ended with him, but the pregnancy greatly weakened her and the family vanished into seclusion when Scorpius was born. After Scorpius' birth, Astoria refused to teach her son the pure-blooded belief that Muggles were scum. Lucius and Narcissa, therefore found her a somewhat disappointing daughter-in-law; family gatherings were, as a result, often fraught with tension. Ultimately, they are a good couple.
Quote from Nikka on December 14, 2023, 9:29 pmI find this thread to be super interesting! I personally think that Harry/Ginny were made for each other and so were Lucius/Narcissa, with Ron/Hermione being somewhere in the middle, but to be honest, I cannot understand the James/Lily or Lupin/Tonks relationship.
Of course, Jily had to happen for the canon to exist, but the circumstances of their romance are at best dubious, and I simply cannot fathom their relationship outlasting the first war had they survived.
The Remadora ship is even more unfounded, as I believe that JK Rowling deliberately wrote Lupin to be paired with SIRIUS. The fact that Remus could so quickly get over the death of his best friend/partner (there are many cues in the books that they were romantically involved), get married, and have a child seems very unrealistic. He even said it himself: "I – I made a grave mistake in marrying Tonks. I did it against my better judgment and I have regretted it very much ever since."
I find this thread to be super interesting! I personally think that Harry/Ginny were made for each other and so were Lucius/Narcissa, with Ron/Hermione being somewhere in the middle, but to be honest, I cannot understand the James/Lily or Lupin/Tonks relationship.
Of course, Jily had to happen for the canon to exist, but the circumstances of their romance are at best dubious, and I simply cannot fathom their relationship outlasting the first war had they survived.
The Remadora ship is even more unfounded, as I believe that JK Rowling deliberately wrote Lupin to be paired with SIRIUS. The fact that Remus could so quickly get over the death of his best friend/partner (there are many cues in the books that they were romantically involved), get married, and have a child seems very unrealistic. He even said it himself: "I – I made a grave mistake in marrying Tonks. I did it against my better judgment and I have regretted it very much ever since."
Quote from The Gestalt Prince on December 14, 2023, 9:44 pmThe reason I don't ship Wolfstar is that Sirius chose to use Remus's condition as a means of "spooking" Snape back in their fifth year, which could've gotten at least one person killed. But there's another thread for that topic.
The reason I don't ship Wolfstar is that Sirius chose to use Remus's condition as a means of "spooking" Snape back in their fifth year, which could've gotten at least one person killed. But there's another thread for that topic.