In Defense of Severus Snape (And Those of Us Who Love Him)
Quote from Heatherlly on February 16, 2023, 5:04 amSeverus was by no means a perfect character. As Snape fans, we know that, and we certainly don't mind acknowledging/discussing his flaws and shortcomings.
Having said that, there are people who make him out to be a hell of a lot worse than he was. They frame his actions (even the decent ones) in the worst possible light, and/or straight up accuse him of things he never did. I've seen people insist that he was a stalker, a rapist (???), even call him a Nazi, failing to understand nuance or the differences between fiction and real life. They'll even attack fans themselves, as if our love for a fictional character makes us worthy of condemnation.
I made this thread specifically to discuss these unfair (and sometimes bonkers) accusations. They deserve to be refuted, IMO, and I personally enjoy picking them apart/showing how ridiculous they are.
Severus was by no means a perfect character. As Snape fans, we know that, and we certainly don't mind acknowledging/discussing his flaws and shortcomings.
Having said that, there are people who make him out to be a hell of a lot worse than he was. They frame his actions (even the decent ones) in the worst possible light, and/or straight up accuse him of things he never did. I've seen people insist that he was a stalker, a rapist (???), even call him a Nazi, failing to understand nuance or the differences between fiction and real life. They'll even attack fans themselves, as if our love for a fictional character makes us worthy of condemnation.
I made this thread specifically to discuss these unfair (and sometimes bonkers) accusations. They deserve to be refuted, IMO, and I personally enjoy picking them apart/showing how ridiculous they are.
Quote from FIQ on February 16, 2023, 5:32 amOne of the claims that always puzzled me was people calling him an "incel". There is no basis whatsoever for this claim, hell I'd almost argue that James comes closer to that claim (but neither of them are one) given his inability to take "no" for an answer.
I think the reason people's views on Snape vary so wildly is because there's a lot of critical periods of his life that we know nothing about. We know that he was willing to rely a prophecy that implied someone being born to defeat Voldemort. On some level he must have understood that he was essentially putting a newborn in danger. And that's basically all we know of his actions while being a Death Eater. We also know that he was fully reformed at least during Harry's 6th year ("Lately, only those I couldn't save" as a response regarding those that he had witnessed dying).
Then, we also have to keep in mind that Snape was indisputably an *awful* teacher and bullied children. Was this more or less normal during the time period? Yes. Does it make it right? No! I imagine that many people with personal experiences of mean teachers see Snape in those and end up taking people who view him favourably as a personal insult.
One of the claims that always puzzled me was people calling him an "incel". There is no basis whatsoever for this claim, hell I'd almost argue that James comes closer to that claim (but neither of them are one) given his inability to take "no" for an answer.
I think the reason people's views on Snape vary so wildly is because there's a lot of critical periods of his life that we know nothing about. We know that he was willing to rely a prophecy that implied someone being born to defeat Voldemort. On some level he must have understood that he was essentially putting a newborn in danger. And that's basically all we know of his actions while being a Death Eater. We also know that he was fully reformed at least during Harry's 6th year ("Lately, only those I couldn't save" as a response regarding those that he had witnessed dying).
Then, we also have to keep in mind that Snape was indisputably an *awful* teacher and bullied children. Was this more or less normal during the time period? Yes. Does it make it right? No! I imagine that many people with personal experiences of mean teachers see Snape in those and end up taking people who view him favourably as a personal insult.
Quote from Heatherlly on February 16, 2023, 6:46 amYou're right. Many of the details of his life are ambiguous or unknown, which makes it easy for people to project and/or make assumptions.
Two other points:
- I think he was fully reformed long before sixth year. This, of course, is open to interpretation, but I believe the reformation began when he switched sides and was cemented by Lily's death.
- I wouldn't necessarily agree that he was an awful teacher. It depends on how you look at it, but in a practical sense, it seems to me that he was good at his job. There's no indication that he graded unfairly (i.e. giving bad marks to students who performed well). As for bullying…
We only see Snape as a teacher from Harry's POV. That POV comes with a bias, considering that Snape was hard on Harry/his friends. Harry despises him, which is valid, but it also makes him a limited/unreliable narrator. He assumes the worst (fair or unfair depending on the situation) rather than viewing Snape more objectively or giving him the benefit of the doubt.
Likewise, Harry has a negative influence on Snape. Harry is an irritant, a source of massive frustration and pain, which naturally affects Snape's behavior. Does that mean that Snape is warm and cuddly when Harry isn't there? Well, no. But Harry's presence is a factor, and a powerful one, triggering Snape's worst tendencies. It wouldn't make sense for him to behave the exact same way when Harry isn't around.
The problem with mass generalizations is that they don't leave room for this sort of nuance. I often hear people say stuff like, "Snape hated children" or "He was mean to all his students", but those assumptions are based on how he treated Harry (and friends by association), not the average student.
That said, I do think he was strict, a teacher who had high standards and a low tolerance for bullshit. Overall, I think those are good qualities rather than bad ones… I can see them being highly effective in a more neutral classroom environment.
You're right. Many of the details of his life are ambiguous or unknown, which makes it easy for people to project and/or make assumptions.
Two other points:
- I think he was fully reformed long before sixth year. This, of course, is open to interpretation, but I believe the reformation began when he switched sides and was cemented by Lily's death.
- I wouldn't necessarily agree that he was an awful teacher. It depends on how you look at it, but in a practical sense, it seems to me that he was good at his job. There's no indication that he graded unfairly (i.e. giving bad marks to students who performed well). As for bullying…
We only see Snape as a teacher from Harry's POV. That POV comes with a bias, considering that Snape was hard on Harry/his friends. Harry despises him, which is valid, but it also makes him a limited/unreliable narrator. He assumes the worst (fair or unfair depending on the situation) rather than viewing Snape more objectively or giving him the benefit of the doubt.
Likewise, Harry has a negative influence on Snape. Harry is an irritant, a source of massive frustration and pain, which naturally affects Snape's behavior. Does that mean that Snape is warm and cuddly when Harry isn't there? Well, no. But Harry's presence is a factor, and a powerful one, triggering Snape's worst tendencies. It wouldn't make sense for him to behave the exact same way when Harry isn't around.
The problem with mass generalizations is that they don't leave room for this sort of nuance. I often hear people say stuff like, "Snape hated children" or "He was mean to all his students", but those assumptions are based on how he treated Harry (and friends by association), not the average student.
That said, I do think he was strict, a teacher who had high standards and a low tolerance for bullshit. Overall, I think those are good qualities rather than bad ones… I can see them being highly effective in a more neutral classroom environment.
Quote from FIQ on February 16, 2023, 8:10 amI do agree that he likely reformed much earlier than 6th year. I was just trying to point out cases where we have incontrovertible evidence of the fact, to make the point that I fully understand why people can have pretty much opposite views on the same character without ignoring canon. I had an idea for a fic a few years ago where we follow a bunch of canon scenes from Snape's pov in 2 versions: "clearly good" Snape and "clearly evil" Snape, but with both of them being entirely canon compilant and plausible, to play on how people's views about him vary so much. But I don't think I'd be able to make such a fic justice with my lack of writing experience.
As for his teaching: There are various moments where he is an utter prick to children for no proper reason outside his teaching environment. He utterly humiliated Neville in front of Lupin, basically implying that he was utterly hopeless. That doesn't justify what Lupin did in response with the boggart, but still. He also made Neville think that he was perfectly happy to kill his toad or otherwise let it come to major harm (I don't think he'd actually let Trevor be put in any real danger, but Neville doesn't know that). He also humiliated Hermione in 4th year and caused her to flee in tears.
Yes, Harry's pov is most certainly biased. But there is no excuse for these actions.
I do agree that he likely reformed much earlier than 6th year. I was just trying to point out cases where we have incontrovertible evidence of the fact, to make the point that I fully understand why people can have pretty much opposite views on the same character without ignoring canon. I had an idea for a fic a few years ago where we follow a bunch of canon scenes from Snape's pov in 2 versions: "clearly good" Snape and "clearly evil" Snape, but with both of them being entirely canon compilant and plausible, to play on how people's views about him vary so much. But I don't think I'd be able to make such a fic justice with my lack of writing experience.
As for his teaching: There are various moments where he is an utter prick to children for no proper reason outside his teaching environment. He utterly humiliated Neville in front of Lupin, basically implying that he was utterly hopeless. That doesn't justify what Lupin did in response with the boggart, but still. He also made Neville think that he was perfectly happy to kill his toad or otherwise let it come to major harm (I don't think he'd actually let Trevor be put in any real danger, but Neville doesn't know that). He also humiliated Hermione in 4th year and caused her to flee in tears.
Yes, Harry's pov is most certainly biased. But there is no excuse for these actions.
Quote from Heatherlly on February 16, 2023, 9:01 amOh, don't get me wrong. I'm not excusing those actions at all. My only point is that incidents like that were heavily influenced by Harry's presence and/or his connection with certain students (Hermione, Neville, etc). In Neville's case, Snape has even more motivation to act out. Lily would still be alive if Voldemort had chosen Neville, and Snape knows it. I'm not excusing him resenting Neville for that reason (Neville is innocent), but… it's hard to believe it isn't a factor.
Similarly, being around Lupin has to be difficult for him (to say the least). Right or wrong, he has plenty of reasons to act more harshly around each of these people than say, some random Hufflepuff.
As for your story idea… it sounds fascinating, and I think you should write it. Who cares if you lack experience? We learn by doing, especially when it comes to writing. 🙂
Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not excusing those actions at all. My only point is that incidents like that were heavily influenced by Harry's presence and/or his connection with certain students (Hermione, Neville, etc). In Neville's case, Snape has even more motivation to act out. Lily would still be alive if Voldemort had chosen Neville, and Snape knows it. I'm not excusing him resenting Neville for that reason (Neville is innocent), but… it's hard to believe it isn't a factor.
Similarly, being around Lupin has to be difficult for him (to say the least). Right or wrong, he has plenty of reasons to act more harshly around each of these people than say, some random Hufflepuff.
As for your story idea… it sounds fascinating, and I think you should write it. Who cares if you lack experience? We learn by doing, especially when it comes to writing. 🙂
Quote from FIQ on February 16, 2023, 9:49 am(edit: This post was in response to a now-deleted post)
Just to clear it up: I do agree with you entirely when it comes to Neville and the Boggart, I do believe that people give it more weight than deserved. I was referring to what happens *before* the lesson. Snape shows up, for reasons unclear/unimportant, and then tells Lupin that he shouldn't be giving Neville any sort of challenge at all because he'll fumble it horribly. I don't have the exact quote handy but this is essentially what it amounted to.
(edit: This post was in response to a now-deleted post)
Just to clear it up: I do agree with you entirely when it comes to Neville and the Boggart, I do believe that people give it more weight than deserved. I was referring to what happens *before* the lesson. Snape shows up, for reasons unclear/unimportant, and then tells Lupin that he shouldn't be giving Neville any sort of challenge at all because he'll fumble it horribly. I don't have the exact quote handy but this is essentially what it amounted to.
Quote from Heatherlly on February 16, 2023, 10:25 am@kris I deleted your post, but only because that meta of @pet-genius's is scheduled to go up on our blog in a couple weeks. 🙂 You're right though – her analysis is incredible. Here's another one of her posts that highlights (and absolutely destroys) many of the "Severus was a bad person" arguments:
https://alwayssnape.com/severus-snape-a-moral-analysis/
@kris I deleted your post, but only because that meta of @pet-genius's is scheduled to go up on our blog in a couple weeks. 🙂 You're right though – her analysis is incredible. Here's another one of her posts that highlights (and absolutely destroys) many of the "Severus was a bad person" arguments:
Quote from Krystal on February 16, 2023, 10:29 am@heatherlly, I am quite a fan of her analysis, the fact that she uses the canon text leaves no room for typical Snater headcanon counterarguments. It's okay you deleted my post, I didn't know her meta was scheduled to be posted here.
@heatherlly, I am quite a fan of her analysis, the fact that she uses the canon text leaves no room for typical Snater headcanon counterarguments. It's okay you deleted my post, I didn't know her meta was scheduled to be posted here.
Quote from Heatherlly on February 17, 2023, 11:11 amCan we talk about the "Severus stalked Lily" nonsense? I know some people interpret things differently and/or have poor reading comprehension, but this one is ridiculous. It especially blows my mind when it comes from James fans (as it usually does). I mean, let's unpack the basics here…
SEVERUS
- Lily becomes (and remains) friends with him by choice. That's clear from their very first meeting. Yes, he's the one who initiated it, but look at what happened. She got offended and blew him off. He let her go. He was disappointed, humiliated, which… I'm sure we can all agree that he wouldn't have tried again under those circumstances. She would've had to initiate a second, more positive interaction, which is how they became friends.
- Lily stayed friends with him for years, despite increasing pressure to drop him. There was absolutely nothing stopping her from cutting him off if she'd wanted to – everyone would've been on her side. But she didn't do that, did she? She endured the criticism, the judgment, which goes to show that she wanted/valued the friendship. She fought to keep it, only giving up when she felt she had no other choice.
- Severus attempts to apologize after SWM. Lily makes it clear that she no longer wants to be friends. Does Severus push the issue? Does he lie to her, guilt trip her, try to manipulate her to get back in her good graces? No, he does not.
- Is there any indication, even the slightest hint, that he ever tried to talk to her or even go near her after that night? No, there isn't.
I don't know what these people think a stalker is, but it sure as hell isn't a person who respects someone's wishes and leaves them alone. Now James, on the other hand…
JAMES
- Repeatedly tries to insinuate himself into Lily's life, even when she makes it clear she doesn't like him.
- Bullies someone she clearly cares about, which (along with the previous point) shows blatant disregard for her feelings. Unlike Severus, James doesn't care if Lily is upset or hurt or angry. His needs/feelings come first, to the point that he's willing to sexually assault her best friend while attempting to blackmail her into going out with him.
That last point is often minimized by James apologists. They have sort of a, "no big deal/boys will be boys" attitude, and some of them even claim that Severus deserved it. But let's look at it this way: what if Severus had been a girl?
I know he wasn't, and I realize this isn't an exact comparison. Still, picturing him as the opposite sex makes it that much more clear how egregious this was. It was a violation, plain and simple, one that should've been a criminal offense regardless of the victim's gender. And then to use that assault to victimize someone else?
That's the thing. Severus wasn't the only one who was victimized in that scene, even if what happened to Lily is somewhat less obvious. James tried to take away her power to say, "No", playing on her compassion and vulnerability for leverage. It was disgusting, and I daresay the actions of a predator.
Moving on…
- James didn't become a better person after that incident. If he had, he would've recognized how badly he'd mistreated Lily. He would've realized that harassing someone for years while disregarding their boundaries is a terrible thing to do, something you can only make amends for by leaving that person alone. But he didn't do that, did he? He just changed tactics, realizing that his previous behavior wasn't working. That's why he started acting differently, at least as far as Lily could see. It's not that he recognized that his previous behavior was wrong, only that it wouldn't work in terms of getting what he wanted.
Some might argue that I'm being too harsh. I disagree. Canon makes it clear that he continued to bully Severus behind Lily's back, destroying any illusion that he ever regretted what he did or learned from his mistakes.
So why do these people accuse Severus of being a stalker, when James is clearly the one who demonstrated predatory behavior? I can't say for sure, though here's my theory:
THE ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS.
Lily chose to marry James. She ended up with him, so he couldn't have been that bad. Meanwhile, she shut Severus out of her life, so he must've been worse than he seemed.
It's a simplistic way of thinking, one that misses a hell of a lot of nuance, but I think there's truth to it. I think some people judge both characters based on the outcome of their relationship with Lily, not everything that happened up to that point. Who cares if James harassed Lily? She fell in love with/married the guy, proving that he was right to pursue her. Likewise, does it matter that she and Severus had a genuine friendship? It ended badly, so he's obviously a creep.
Of course, we can say for sure that Severus wasn't a stalker. We have proof of that in how he behaved after Lily cut him off. But what about James? What if Lily had continued to refuse his advances, long after Severus was out of the picture? Would he have respected her wishes as Severus did? Or would he have refused to take "no" for an answer, resorting to previous, well-documented behaviors in further attempts to get what he wanted?
My guess is the latter, which means he could've been a stalker. There are plenty of red flags in his behavior, and no sign that he regretted his mistakes/learned to prioritize Lily's feelings. He might've figured out how to cater to those feelings, but not without deception/ulterior motives. Honestly, the only thing that stopped him from being a stalker (or at least a predatory creep) is the fact that (for whatever reason) he managed to win her over.
Can we talk about the "Severus stalked Lily" nonsense? I know some people interpret things differently and/or have poor reading comprehension, but this one is ridiculous. It especially blows my mind when it comes from James fans (as it usually does). I mean, let's unpack the basics here…
SEVERUS
- Lily becomes (and remains) friends with him by choice. That's clear from their very first meeting. Yes, he's the one who initiated it, but look at what happened. She got offended and blew him off. He let her go. He was disappointed, humiliated, which… I'm sure we can all agree that he wouldn't have tried again under those circumstances. She would've had to initiate a second, more positive interaction, which is how they became friends.
- Lily stayed friends with him for years, despite increasing pressure to drop him. There was absolutely nothing stopping her from cutting him off if she'd wanted to – everyone would've been on her side. But she didn't do that, did she? She endured the criticism, the judgment, which goes to show that she wanted/valued the friendship. She fought to keep it, only giving up when she felt she had no other choice.
- Severus attempts to apologize after SWM. Lily makes it clear that she no longer wants to be friends. Does Severus push the issue? Does he lie to her, guilt trip her, try to manipulate her to get back in her good graces? No, he does not.
- Is there any indication, even the slightest hint, that he ever tried to talk to her or even go near her after that night? No, there isn't.
I don't know what these people think a stalker is, but it sure as hell isn't a person who respects someone's wishes and leaves them alone. Now James, on the other hand…
JAMES
- Repeatedly tries to insinuate himself into Lily's life, even when she makes it clear she doesn't like him.
- Bullies someone she clearly cares about, which (along with the previous point) shows blatant disregard for her feelings. Unlike Severus, James doesn't care if Lily is upset or hurt or angry. His needs/feelings come first, to the point that he's willing to sexually assault her best friend while attempting to blackmail her into going out with him.
That last point is often minimized by James apologists. They have sort of a, "no big deal/boys will be boys" attitude, and some of them even claim that Severus deserved it. But let's look at it this way: what if Severus had been a girl?
I know he wasn't, and I realize this isn't an exact comparison. Still, picturing him as the opposite sex makes it that much more clear how egregious this was. It was a violation, plain and simple, one that should've been a criminal offense regardless of the victim's gender. And then to use that assault to victimize someone else?
That's the thing. Severus wasn't the only one who was victimized in that scene, even if what happened to Lily is somewhat less obvious. James tried to take away her power to say, "No", playing on her compassion and vulnerability for leverage. It was disgusting, and I daresay the actions of a predator.
Moving on…
- James didn't become a better person after that incident. If he had, he would've recognized how badly he'd mistreated Lily. He would've realized that harassing someone for years while disregarding their boundaries is a terrible thing to do, something you can only make amends for by leaving that person alone. But he didn't do that, did he? He just changed tactics, realizing that his previous behavior wasn't working. That's why he started acting differently, at least as far as Lily could see. It's not that he recognized that his previous behavior was wrong, only that it wouldn't work in terms of getting what he wanted.
Some might argue that I'm being too harsh. I disagree. Canon makes it clear that he continued to bully Severus behind Lily's back, destroying any illusion that he ever regretted what he did or learned from his mistakes.
So why do these people accuse Severus of being a stalker, when James is clearly the one who demonstrated predatory behavior? I can't say for sure, though here's my theory:
THE ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS.
Lily chose to marry James. She ended up with him, so he couldn't have been that bad. Meanwhile, she shut Severus out of her life, so he must've been worse than he seemed.
It's a simplistic way of thinking, one that misses a hell of a lot of nuance, but I think there's truth to it. I think some people judge both characters based on the outcome of their relationship with Lily, not everything that happened up to that point. Who cares if James harassed Lily? She fell in love with/married the guy, proving that he was right to pursue her. Likewise, does it matter that she and Severus had a genuine friendship? It ended badly, so he's obviously a creep.
Of course, we can say for sure that Severus wasn't a stalker. We have proof of that in how he behaved after Lily cut him off. But what about James? What if Lily had continued to refuse his advances, long after Severus was out of the picture? Would he have respected her wishes as Severus did? Or would he have refused to take "no" for an answer, resorting to previous, well-documented behaviors in further attempts to get what he wanted?
My guess is the latter, which means he could've been a stalker. There are plenty of red flags in his behavior, and no sign that he regretted his mistakes/learned to prioritize Lily's feelings. He might've figured out how to cater to those feelings, but not without deception/ulterior motives. Honestly, the only thing that stopped him from being a stalker (or at least a predatory creep) is the fact that (for whatever reason) he managed to win her over.
Quote from FIQ on February 17, 2023, 1:18 pmOne thing worth pointing out is that during the SWM scene at one point James says "Ah, don't make me hex you Evans", which is a poster sign of outright abusive behaviour. The James-Lily relationship never sat well with me, and frankly neither of the 2 are good options for her if Snape stays the course towards becoming a Death Eater and James is, well, James. There are, all things considered, surprisingly few fics featuring Lily that ships her with a 3rd party or none at all.
One thing worth pointing out is that during the SWM scene at one point James says "Ah, don't make me hex you Evans", which is a poster sign of outright abusive behaviour. The James-Lily relationship never sat well with me, and frankly neither of the 2 are good options for her if Snape stays the course towards becoming a Death Eater and James is, well, James. There are, all things considered, surprisingly few fics featuring Lily that ships her with a 3rd party or none at all.