Meta: What Factors make James/Lily/Snape such heated and intense topic?

#1 · July 7, 2023, 12:46 am

Quote from Naaga on July 7, 2023, 12:46 am
Source: What factors makee James/Lily/Snape such a heated and intense topic?

The real problem, I think, is that Rowling was always writing detective fiction, even in the Potterverse. Characters make statements which turn out not to be true, and we are deliberately misled in order to set up sudden dramatic reversals.

Snape is a hugely important character, in many ways the backbone of the plot. If he hadn't first relayed the prophecy, then begged for Lily's life, there would have been no blood protection on Harry. The Potters would probably still have been killed, just because they were Order members, Harry would have died a baby and Voldemort would have won. So he is very important to the plot, yet Rowling wished to mislead us about his true role, in order to set up a coup de theatre in the final book.

In addition, he was based on her mother's friend and employer John Nettleship, in whose office the young Rowling spent several years' worth of coffee breaks, and with whom she seems to be a bit obsessed, We know more about Snape's background than that of any other characters except Harry, Dumbledore and the Weasleys. His gestures are minutely described - how he walks, how he moves his hands, how he moves his lips, his expression - yet we only see him from the outside. We have to work out what is going on with him by observing his gestures, which are tells. This makes him seem more vividly real than most of the characters, because we see and learn him the way we see and learn some real bloke we met in the pub.

Yet, we are deliberately misled into thinking he's going to be a villain, and many people fell for it. By making Snape seem to be a villain, we are initially misled into thinking his dislike of James and Sirius was just bias.

The initial impression we are given of Snape and his relationship with the Marauders is almost wholly misleading, and is meant to be. Rowling is playing mind-fuck. Yet, the author's pen lingers over Snape's every gesture so lovingly that it's clear he's important to the plot, and he became the epicentre of many fan theories and of a host of fanons - ideas made up by the fen and then treated as canon.

When Rowling suddenly sprung it on us that James really was a bully, and later that Snape was a (slightly tattered) hero, many people were reluctant to give up their deeply-held fanons which had shaped their understanding of the books, and tried to force the text to fit the fanon - so we get people who still refuse to accept that James bullied Snape, regardless of what Rowling may say both in the books and on Pottermore.

Something similar happened with Dumbledore. Some people still clung to their idea of him as a saintly, kindly old grandfather figure against all the evidence, while others were so shocked by the revelations in DH that they decided he was a complete villain with no redeeming features.

Also, many people on both sides of the debate can't cope with the idea that somebody can be both a self-sacrificing hero and a pain in the arse, so depending on which side they're on they deny either Snape or James their heroism.

The films are an added complication. Lily in the books is brave and witty but a bit nasty (OK, Rowling seems to like her - but Rowling too is a bit nasty), but people confuse book Lily with the be-haloed Saint Lily of the films, and they muddle book Snape with film Snape. Rickman!Snape is more romantic than book Snape, who is a bad-tempered, scruffy, rather ugly little pinsaw. But Rickman!Snape portrays Snape as a calm, confidant, middle-aged bully who slaps students around and punishes Harry for successful Legilimency, and who ignores a live baby in order to cradle a dead woman. Book Snape is not much older than the students, tired and stressed but very non-physical, and he praises Harry for breaking into his mind, and always protects the children.

So then you get people muddling the books with the films, and saying that book!Snape is evil because he ignored a live baby to cradle a dead woman, even though that didn't happen in the books (and even in the films, he couldn't *know* Lily was dead until he'd examined her, and if she'd been alive but unconscious she would have been in more need of attention than Harry), and also forgetting that Snape was only twenty-one when Lily died.

On top of that, you get a lot of teenage fen who impose an overheated, Twilight-derived sensibility onto the books. James and Lily can't just be two twenty-year-olds with a baby - they have to be an ideal couple, or a horrible one. Or Sev and Lily have to be an ideal couple split up by wicked James, or alternatively Sev has to be a stalker who was friendzoned, even though in the books there's no evidence that Lily ever fancied Sev and very little that he ever fancied her, and when she told him to go, he seems to have gone, and stayed gone. Snape's continuing devotion to Lily has to be primarily sexual, according to this section of the fandom, even though there's no evidence that it was in the books.

Then you have to consider that most Potter fen are women, and women tend to identify with the character who suffers most. That tends to be seen as either Snape or Sirius, so you have people passionately devoted to one or other of two characters who are enemies.

Because Snape is both very vivid, and suffers a lot, and has this uber-romantic "secret hero" thing going on, his fen are especially passionate. I've been active in fandom since 1981 and I have never known a character be loved as deeply by as many people as Snape is loved. And of course those of us who love Snape are irritated by the fact that so many of the people who dislike Snape, dislike him on the basis of things which only happened in the films, or which didn't happen at all, except in fanon - such as the oft' repeated claim that he was biased against Gryffindor, even though he only made one disparaging remark about Gryffindor in the entire series, when he was eleven. Disliking a character for things they actually did is a matter of taste - disliking them for things you made up, and then presenting that as canon evidence, is infuriating, whether it's applied to Snape or to Dumbledore.

Addendum: another thing which infuriates many Snape fen, especially me, is the double standards which are applied to Snape, so that he alone is judged for behaviour which is normal to his culture, while other characters get away with far worse. For example Snape over-reacting to Harry’s bad behaviour and taking too many points off him because of his resemblance to James is presented as a heinous crime, while Hagrid violently attacking a terrified, cowering Muggle child because that child’s father made a rude remark about Dumbledore is jolly good fun. This is partly because Snape is nasty to Harry while the other characters are mainly nasty to people Harry doesn’t care about, and many readers can’t get beyond Harry’s viewpoint; but it’s also, again, because Snape is written so vividly. Snape feels real, so his faults are treated as the faults of a real person, while the other characters feel a bit cartoony and their often much greater faults are treated like the faults of Tom and Jerry.

Source: What factors makee James/Lily/Snape such a heated and intense topic?

The real problem, I think, is that Rowling was always writing detective fiction, even in the Potterverse. Characters make statements which turn out not to be true, and we are deliberately misled in order to set up sudden dramatic reversals.

Snape is a hugely important character, in many ways the backbone of the plot. If he hadn't first relayed the prophecy, then begged for Lily's life, there would have been no blood protection on Harry. The Potters would probably still have been killed, just because they were Order members, Harry would have died a baby and Voldemort would have won. So he is very important to the plot, yet Rowling wished to mislead us about his true role, in order to set up a coup de theatre in the final book.

In addition, he was based on her mother's friend and employer John Nettleship, in whose office the young Rowling spent several years' worth of coffee breaks, and with whom she seems to be a bit obsessed, We know more about Snape's background than that of any other characters except Harry, Dumbledore and the Weasleys. His gestures are minutely described - how he walks, how he moves his hands, how he moves his lips, his expression - yet we only see him from the outside. We have to work out what is going on with him by observing his gestures, which are tells. This makes him seem more vividly real than most of the characters, because we see and learn him the way we see and learn some real bloke we met in the pub.

Yet, we are deliberately misled into thinking he's going to be a villain, and many people fell for it. By making Snape seem to be a villain, we are initially misled into thinking his dislike of James and Sirius was just bias.

The initial impression we are given of Snape and his relationship with the Marauders is almost wholly misleading, and is meant to be. Rowling is playing mind-fuck. Yet, the author's pen lingers over Snape's every gesture so lovingly that it's clear he's important to the plot, and he became the epicentre of many fan theories and of a host of fanons - ideas made up by the fen and then treated as canon.

When Rowling suddenly sprung it on us that James really was a bully, and later that Snape was a (slightly tattered) hero, many people were reluctant to give up their deeply-held fanons which had shaped their understanding of the books, and tried to force the text to fit the fanon - so we get people who still refuse to accept that James bullied Snape, regardless of what Rowling may say both in the books and on Pottermore.

Something similar happened with Dumbledore. Some people still clung to their idea of him as a saintly, kindly old grandfather figure against all the evidence, while others were so shocked by the revelations in DH that they decided he was a complete villain with no redeeming features.

Also, many people on both sides of the debate can't cope with the idea that somebody can be both a self-sacrificing hero and a pain in the arse, so depending on which side they're on they deny either Snape or James their heroism.

The films are an added complication. Lily in the books is brave and witty but a bit nasty (OK, Rowling seems to like her - but Rowling too is a bit nasty), but people confuse book Lily with the be-haloed Saint Lily of the films, and they muddle book Snape with film Snape. Rickman!Snape is more romantic than book Snape, who is a bad-tempered, scruffy, rather ugly little pinsaw. But Rickman!Snape portrays Snape as a calm, confidant, middle-aged bully who slaps students around and punishes Harry for successful Legilimency, and who ignores a live baby in order to cradle a dead woman. Book Snape is not much older than the students, tired and stressed but very non-physical, and he praises Harry for breaking into his mind, and always protects the children.

So then you get people muddling the books with the films, and saying that book!Snape is evil because he ignored a live baby to cradle a dead woman, even though that didn't happen in the books (and even in the films, he couldn't *know* Lily was dead until he'd examined her, and if she'd been alive but unconscious she would have been in more need of attention than Harry), and also forgetting that Snape was only twenty-one when Lily died.

On top of that, you get a lot of teenage fen who impose an overheated, Twilight-derived sensibility onto the books. James and Lily can't just be two twenty-year-olds with a baby - they have to be an ideal couple, or a horrible one. Or Sev and Lily have to be an ideal couple split up by wicked James, or alternatively Sev has to be a stalker who was friendzoned, even though in the books there's no evidence that Lily ever fancied Sev and very little that he ever fancied her, and when she told him to go, he seems to have gone, and stayed gone. Snape's continuing devotion to Lily has to be primarily sexual, according to this section of the fandom, even though there's no evidence that it was in the books.

Then you have to consider that most Potter fen are women, and women tend to identify with the character who suffers most. That tends to be seen as either Snape or Sirius, so you have people passionately devoted to one or other of two characters who are enemies.

Because Snape is both very vivid, and suffers a lot, and has this uber-romantic "secret hero" thing going on, his fen are especially passionate. I've been active in fandom since 1981 and I have never known a character be loved as deeply by as many people as Snape is loved. And of course those of us who love Snape are irritated by the fact that so many of the people who dislike Snape, dislike him on the basis of things which only happened in the films, or which didn't happen at all, except in fanon - such as the oft' repeated claim that he was biased against Gryffindor, even though he only made one disparaging remark about Gryffindor in the entire series, when he was eleven. Disliking a character for things they actually did is a matter of taste - disliking them for things you made up, and then presenting that as canon evidence, is infuriating, whether it's applied to Snape or to Dumbledore.

Addendum: another thing which infuriates many Snape fen, especially me, is the double standards which are applied to Snape, so that he alone is judged for behaviour which is normal to his culture, while other characters get away with far worse. For example Snape over-reacting to Harry’s bad behaviour and taking too many points off him because of his resemblance to James is presented as a heinous crime, while Hagrid violently attacking a terrified, cowering Muggle child because that child’s father made a rude remark about Dumbledore is jolly good fun. This is partly because Snape is nasty to Harry while the other characters are mainly nasty to people Harry doesn’t care about, and many readers can’t get beyond Harry’s viewpoint; but it’s also, again, because Snape is written so vividly. Snape feels real, so his faults are treated as the faults of a real person, while the other characters feel a bit cartoony and their often much greater faults are treated like the faults of Tom and Jerry.

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#2 · September 26, 2026, 11:39 am

Quote from IFFIN on September 26, 2026, 11:39 am
Part I

I have been answering this offline and I was trying to edit it to be shorter, but it just got longer. I tried posting it in one go. That wasn't happening. So I am doing it in parts and I want to do it today, because I start a paint class this afternoon and don't want this on my mind.

Interesting stuff so far. But I don’t think we know if JKR was obsessed with John Nettleship or just a child observing her mother’s boss. About the coup de theatre I remember when trying to look for clues on what was going to happen next. One book that JKR loved was I Captured the Castle, because of the surprise. I’ve read the book and watched the movie and yes there is a big surprise. So I kept that in mind when looking for clues. Since I liked Snape, I always believed the big surprise had to do with him.

When Rowling suddenly sprung it on us that James really was a bully, and later that Snape was a (slightly tattered) hero, many people were reluctant to give up their deeply-held fanons which had shaped their understanding of the books, and tried to force the text to fit the fanon - so we get people who still refuse to accept that James bullied Snape, regardless of what Rowling may say both in the books and on Pottermore.

This I believe. And personally I don’t think there is anything wrong in believing that fictional reality as long as you know that it isn’t book canon and you respect that others have their own ships. And if you have a different point of view, share it. Maybe there is something in canon that makes you think differently because we are all unique and no one is ever going to see 100%. The stories will in the end and they are always changing. Someone saw the Scarecrow fall in love with The Wicked Witch of the West and we got Wicked the musical.

Something similar happened with Dumbledore. Some people still clung to their idea of him as a saintly, kindly old grandfather figure against all the evidence, while others were so shocked by the revelations in DH that they decided he was a complete villain with no redeeming features.

Nah. I was more upset about how he ran Hogwarts. I never thought he was saintly in the first book when he gave all those points to Gryffindor. And my first read of DH wasn’t a thorough read. I had to see about Snape. So I caught the Dumbledore part, but I didn’t really think about it. Needed to get to Snape's part. Camping. Hermione and Ron arguing. NO Snape. More camping. And where in the f**k did the deathly hallows come from? Was there any clues in the previous books? More camping. Oh hell. Let me just go to the prince's tale. Then I got depressed.

Part I

I have been answering this offline and I was trying to edit it to be shorter, but it just got longer. I tried posting it in one go. That wasn't happening. So I am doing it in parts and I want to do it today, because I start a paint class this afternoon and don't want this on my mind.

Interesting stuff so far. But I don’t think we know if JKR was obsessed with John Nettleship or just a child observing her mother’s boss. About the coup de theatre I remember when trying to look for clues on what was going to happen next. One book that JKR loved was I Captured the Castle, because of the surprise. I’ve read the book and watched the movie and yes there is a big surprise. So I kept that in mind when looking for clues. Since I liked Snape, I always believed the big surprise had to do with him.

When Rowling suddenly sprung it on us that James really was a bully, and later that Snape was a (slightly tattered) hero, many people were reluctant to give up their deeply-held fanons which had shaped their understanding of the books, and tried to force the text to fit the fanon - so we get people who still refuse to accept that James bullied Snape, regardless of what Rowling may say both in the books and on Pottermore.

This I believe. And personally I don’t think there is anything wrong in believing that fictional reality as long as you know that it isn’t book canon and you respect that others have their own ships. And if you have a different point of view, share it. Maybe there is something in canon that makes you think differently because we are all unique and no one is ever going to see 100%. The stories will in the end and they are always changing. Someone saw the Scarecrow fall in love with The Wicked Witch of the West and we got Wicked the musical.

Something similar happened with Dumbledore. Some people still clung to their idea of him as a saintly, kindly old grandfather figure against all the evidence, while others were so shocked by the revelations in DH that they decided he was a complete villain with no redeeming features.

Nah. I was more upset about how he ran Hogwarts. I never thought he was saintly in the first book when he gave all those points to Gryffindor. And my first read of DH wasn’t a thorough read. I had to see about Snape. So I caught the Dumbledore part, but I didn’t really think about it. Needed to get to Snape's part. Camping. Hermione and Ron arguing. NO Snape. More camping. And where in the f**k did the deathly hallows come from? Was there any clues in the previous books? More camping. Oh hell. Let me just go to the prince's tale. Then I got depressed.

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#3 · September 26, 2026, 11:46 am

Quote from IFFIN on September 26, 2026, 11:46 am
Part II

Also, many people on both sides of the debate can't cope with the idea that somebody can be both a self-sacrificing hero and a pain in the arse, so depending on which side they're on they deny either Snape or James their heroism.

This sounds a little bit dramatic to me.

I don’t think that is the problem. I know that some people like to argue that Snape’s reasons were not heroic because of this and that and the same with James. And people can put up their theories and reasons. Some of them can make sense to others. I just think when it comes down to it they just don’t like the character, and we are allowed not to like certain characters and find them annoying.

My problem with James is that we never saw a redemption scene for his behavior. What we got from the interviews was “he grew up” and then we got the JKR short “prequel” she wrote for charity about James and Sirius and the muggle police. Which didn’t show much maturity or any at all. He was 21 when he died and that isn’t a lot of time to mature. I was thinking we might have gotten something in DH showing us that James grew up. We did not.

Here is the short prequel for those who haven’t read it:

https://booksandmebg.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/harry-potter-prequel.pdf

Yes, I do think James is heroic in some ways. First in canon. He joins the Order to help fight Voldemort, where he fights with them and second I am also guessing he helps fund them since he has money.

The films are an added complication.

Well that is just the way it is. I just hate assumptions, such as, fans like Snape because of Alan Rickman. No. He had me at the first two books before the movies came out.

The problem I think is when people are discussing Harry Potter and fans do not distinguish between canon, what they see as canon, their head canon or they might not even know what canon is. I swear some people are quoting something I had never heard in the books or Pottermore. And I think they are quoting someone’s fanfiction? Has anyone had this experience?

I don’t mind if someone uses the movies, interviews, Fantastic Beast, other Wizarding World sources or their own head canon. Granted there are arguments about what is Harry Potter canon. And that is a whole different subject. But basically when you are proving your point point out where you got them even if it is your gut. But just remember your gut feeling is just as valid as the next person.

Now some examples, rambles and rants.

I try not to get irked with comments and I try not to read them. But sometimes they are like an ich I need to scratch. So it is my fault. Mea culpa, Mea culpa. But I get irked by comments claiming something is canon because the person commenting said so, such as, a comment I saw where someone commented on some fan art. It was Snape with black nail polish and Lily where they are in Hogwarts taking a selfie on a flip phone. Maybe I read the comment wrong, but I swear they said that is canon. And I didn’t comment, but at first I thought Hogwarts doesn’t have modern devices and yes the flip phone is old but that wasn’t around in the 1970s. And I am never sure why they have Snape wearing black nail polish. Is it because he is a muggle rockstar, glamrocker, punkrocker, gay or a Hallmark figurine come to life. In the early days of Harry Potter Hallmark came out with Harry Potter Christmas ornaments and glass figurines. I guess they did know if Snape was human, vampire, goblin or a zombie. He was green and had black fingernails. I did the Royal Doulton porcelain but I sold it on ebay. I could take the black finger nails, but I couldn’t take the green skin color. In the following picture you can see some of the green, it might be different lighting or maybe the one I had was greener. We are talking, Wicked Witch of the West Green. Some want to make him goth which didn’t come in until the 80s. Maybe in the UK it was different.

I am not saying I know everything about that time period in the UK. I also know if Harry Potter continues the eras might change, maybe not. I hope not because there are the Founders period, Hogwarts Legacy, Fantastic Beast, Marauders Era, Harry Potter era and Curse Child era. So maybe not. I think the time periods are part of the beauty of the Harry Potter story.

Part II

Also, many people on both sides of the debate can't cope with the idea that somebody can be both a self-sacrificing hero and a pain in the arse, so depending on which side they're on they deny either Snape or James their heroism.

This sounds a little bit dramatic to me.

I don’t think that is the problem. I know that some people like to argue that Snape’s reasons were not heroic because of this and that and the same with James. And people can put up their theories and reasons. Some of them can make sense to others. I just think when it comes down to it they just don’t like the character, and we are allowed not to like certain characters and find them annoying.

My problem with James is that we never saw a redemption scene for his behavior. What we got from the interviews was “he grew up” and then we got the JKR short “prequel” she wrote for charity about James and Sirius and the muggle police. Which didn’t show much maturity or any at all. He was 21 when he died and that isn’t a lot of time to mature. I was thinking we might have gotten something in DH showing us that James grew up. We did not.

Here is the short prequel for those who haven’t read it:

https://booksandmebg.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/harry-potter-prequel.pdf

Yes, I do think James is heroic in some ways. First in canon. He joins the Order to help fight Voldemort, where he fights with them and second I am also guessing he helps fund them since he has money.

The films are an added complication.

Well that is just the way it is. I just hate assumptions, such as, fans like Snape because of Alan Rickman. No. He had me at the first two books before the movies came out.

The problem I think is when people are discussing Harry Potter and fans do not distinguish between canon, what they see as canon, their head canon or they might not even know what canon is. I swear some people are quoting something I had never heard in the books or Pottermore. And I think they are quoting someone’s fanfiction? Has anyone had this experience?

I don’t mind if someone uses the movies, interviews, Fantastic Beast, other Wizarding World sources or their own head canon. Granted there are arguments about what is Harry Potter canon. And that is a whole different subject. But basically when you are proving your point point out where you got them even if it is your gut. But just remember your gut feeling is just as valid as the next person.

Now some examples, rambles and rants.

I try not to get irked with comments and I try not to read them. But sometimes they are like an ich I need to scratch. So it is my fault. Mea culpa, Mea culpa. But I get irked by comments claiming something is canon because the person commenting said so, such as, a comment I saw where someone commented on some fan art. It was Snape with black nail polish and Lily where they are in Hogwarts taking a selfie on a flip phone. Maybe I read the comment wrong, but I swear they said that is canon. And I didn’t comment, but at first I thought Hogwarts doesn’t have modern devices and yes the flip phone is old but that wasn’t around in the 1970s. And I am never sure why they have Snape wearing black nail polish. Is it because he is a muggle rockstar, glamrocker, punkrocker, gay or a Hallmark figurine come to life. In the early days of Harry Potter Hallmark came out with Harry Potter Christmas ornaments and glass figurines. I guess they did know if Snape was human, vampire, goblin or a zombie. He was green and had black fingernails. I did the Royal Doulton porcelain but I sold it on ebay. I could take the black finger nails, but I couldn’t take the green skin color. In the following picture you can see some of the green, it might be different lighting or maybe the one I had was greener. We are talking, Wicked Witch of the West Green. Some want to make him goth which didn’t come in until the 80s. Maybe in the UK it was different.

I am not saying I know everything about that time period in the UK. I also know if Harry Potter continues the eras might change, maybe not. I hope not because there are the Founders period, Hogwarts Legacy, Fantastic Beast, Marauders Era, Harry Potter era and Curse Child era. So maybe not. I think the time periods are part of the beauty of the Harry Potter story.

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#4 · September 26, 2026, 12:14 pm

Quote from IFFIN on September 26, 2026, 12:14 pm

Part III

I guess what I am trying to say here is that I have seen some comments on how they act like their headcanon or fancanon is canon. Some short and snarky and some long. If you mention it is your headcanon that is great. But too many act like their headcanon or their area or fandom is fact and just want you to shut up. They don't let others explore. They don't even want others to go in a what if scenario.

Okay, one more grip about the comments I see. I’ll use the excuse that it helps me explore characters I’m writing about. And James and company had to show up in this fic that I am currently working on and make it longer than I wanted it.

My fault again for reading the comments. The subject was something about out why do people ship Snily and they don’t like it and Jily were meant to be together. Well…maybe not exactly, but that was most of what the comments reflected. There was one that said and I am paraphrasing “ I don’t see why they ship Snape and Lily. James and Lily were meant to be together and were so in love. And were happily married.” It is fine if they want to see things this way, but let others bring in their ideas. Let them ship who they want. They were only married for two years and one of those years I believe was in hiding. I’m pretty sure it wasn’t all fun. But there are many comments like this that just want to shut down conversations. And if they want this as their headcanon. That’s good. But I don’t want this as my head canon. So the problem is others force their headcaon as canon. We don’t know much about how Lily and James got together and how their marriage was. I think I can write it here without all the shut down comments. It should always be about discussion not that isn't true shut up. IT'S FICTION!

Now for my headcanon which goes with the culture of the time 1979 and which is hard for some of the younger people to understand some of the things that were common in 1979.

First I think Lily and James getting together had more to do with physical proximity which is the number one reason people get together. They were in the same house and then after school in the Order. Let's face it. The dating pool for both of them was probably very small. James could have probably gotten someone else if he wanted to, but he wanted Lily. I think it would have been hard for Lily. One could have been the prejudices of some because she was muggle born and I also think that there might have been some reluctance from other guys from school because of what James did to Snape. Maybe part of what James did to Snape at the lake was also an announcement to other male students who take a liking to Evans. James did ask Lily to go out with him in front of the whole school. (I just thought of this as I was writing now. This guy just gets worse and worse for me.)

In the books we are told they started dating in 7th year. We don’t know how much Lily knew about the extent of James bullying Snape, but we know that by the 7th year he had stopped a lot of his other pranks and according to Siriurs and Lupin, Snape was a special case. So James more than likely bullied Snape privately that Lily didn’t know. I don’t think James changed, but his approach to win Lily’s affections did. I believe she honestly thought he changed. We are told by Sirius “She started going out with him in seventh year.” Here we have to go back to what it meant to be going out in 1979. It didn’t automatically mean they were hot and heavy, a couple or so in love. It was a time to slowly get to know a person. Also they could also be seeing other people at the same time and also going in groups. I tend to think they started going out maybe about Valentine's Day and didn’t get serious until after Hogwarts. That seems like the natural progression for me. Yes, there might be a period of euphoria of being in love, but that is a short period in any romantic relationship.

Then the concept that many people in the younger generation have a hard time understanding. My brother was telling me he and a coworker the same age as him were having this conversation with a younger person and she didn’t understand that couples would get married because of unplanned pregnancies. That started to decline in the late 1980s, but in 1979 it was still a thing. But in my headcanon given the time frame and what I have known by my surroundings during that time period is that Lily got pregnant and James “took responsibility” and married her. I know many people reading this might hate the words I am using, but I am putting myself in 1979. If James and Lily took place in another time period then I would adjust.

I am also just sharing my headcanon which just goes with the norms of the time period. I’m not going to debate how awful you might think it was. I also know “knocked up” has a different meaning in the UK, but I used it here, because that was the term I heard when this would happen. I remember the last time I got my hair cut. The woman looked to be around the Mauraders era. And we started talking about where we graduated from and this and that. She brought up that she got pregnant and had to get married. All nonchalant. She was still married to the same guy. I didn’t ask for the information. She was just talking. I don’t think of James and Lily as a great love story and I know some people do and that is fine. The problem is they want to push it on others.

I know we have the interviews with JKR alluding to Lily always having a thing for James, which I don’t know what to think. If I had to believe in the author's intent about Lily, I would be in the camp of people who dislike her and say what they say. Her and James deserve each other. I don’t think I want to go there. Back to my own headcanon where I like Lily.

They died real young. And I do think both were going stir-crazy at Godric's Hollow. (Is there any The Shinning inspired fanfiction with Lily, James and Harry at Godric’s Hallow?) I always assumed that is why Dumbledore took away James’ invisibility cloak because he didn’t trust James to use it. But I also think that Dumbledore didn’t know about his animagus form and he went out anyway.

Anyway, enough of them. When I write fanfiction. I do have to try and find the humanity in the characters.

I also think I have gone on too long and many have checked out, fallen asleep or left the building.

I won’t go into Snape and Lily. I see there is another Meta I will save for later.

Part III

I guess what I am trying to say here is that I have seen some comments on how they act like their headcanon or fancanon is canon. Some short and snarky and some long. If you mention it is your headcanon that is great. But too many act like their headcanon or their area or fandom is fact and just want you to shut up. They don't let others explore. They don't even want others to go in a what if scenario.

Okay, one more grip about the comments I see. I’ll use the excuse that it helps me explore characters I’m writing about. And James and company had to show up in this fic that I am currently working on and make it longer than I wanted it.

My fault again for reading the comments. The subject was something about out why do people ship Snily and they don’t like it and Jily were meant to be together. Well…maybe not exactly, but that was most of what the comments reflected. There was one that said and I am paraphrasing “ I don’t see why they ship Snape and Lily. James and Lily were meant to be together and were so in love. And were happily married.” It is fine if they want to see things this way, but let others bring in their ideas. Let them ship who they want. They were only married for two years and one of those years I believe was in hiding. I’m pretty sure it wasn’t all fun. But there are many comments like this that just want to shut down conversations. And if they want this as their headcanon. That’s good. But I don’t want this as my head canon. So the problem is others force their headcaon as canon. We don’t know much about how Lily and James got together and how their marriage was. I think I can write it here without all the shut down comments. It should always be about discussion not that isn't true shut up. IT'S FICTION!

Now for my headcanon which goes with the culture of the time 1979 and which is hard for some of the younger people to understand some of the things that were common in 1979.

First I think Lily and James getting together had more to do with physical proximity which is the number one reason people get together. They were in the same house and then after school in the Order. Let's face it. The dating pool for both of them was probably very small. James could have probably gotten someone else if he wanted to, but he wanted Lily. I think it would have been hard for Lily. One could have been the prejudices of some because she was muggle born and I also think that there might have been some reluctance from other guys from school because of what James did to Snape. Maybe part of what James did to Snape at the lake was also an announcement to other male students who take a liking to Evans. James did ask Lily to go out with him in front of the whole school. (I just thought of this as I was writing now. This guy just gets worse and worse for me.)

In the books we are told they started dating in 7th year. We don’t know how much Lily knew about the extent of James bullying Snape, but we know that by the 7th year he had stopped a lot of his other pranks and according to Siriurs and Lupin, Snape was a special case. So James more than likely bullied Snape privately that Lily didn’t know. I don’t think James changed, but his approach to win Lily’s affections did. I believe she honestly thought he changed. We are told by Sirius “She started going out with him in seventh year.” Here we have to go back to what it meant to be going out in 1979. It didn’t automatically mean they were hot and heavy, a couple or so in love. It was a time to slowly get to know a person. Also they could also be seeing other people at the same time and also going in groups. I tend to think they started going out maybe about Valentine's Day and didn’t get serious until after Hogwarts. That seems like the natural progression for me. Yes, there might be a period of euphoria of being in love, but that is a short period in any romantic relationship.

Then the concept that many people in the younger generation have a hard time understanding. My brother was telling me he and a coworker the same age as him were having this conversation with a younger person and she didn’t understand that couples would get married because of unplanned pregnancies. That started to decline in the late 1980s, but in 1979 it was still a thing. But in my headcanon given the time frame and what I have known by my surroundings during that time period is that Lily got pregnant and James “took responsibility” and married her. I know many people reading this might hate the words I am using, but I am putting myself in 1979. If James and Lily took place in another time period then I would adjust.

I am also just sharing my headcanon which just goes with the norms of the time period. I’m not going to debate how awful you might think it was. I also know “knocked up” has a different meaning in the UK, but I used it here, because that was the term I heard when this would happen. I remember the last time I got my hair cut. The woman looked to be around the Mauraders era. And we started talking about where we graduated from and this and that. She brought up that she got pregnant and had to get married. All nonchalant. She was still married to the same guy. I didn’t ask for the information. She was just talking. I don’t think of James and Lily as a great love story and I know some people do and that is fine. The problem is they want to push it on others.

I know we have the interviews with JKR alluding to Lily always having a thing for James, which I don’t know what to think. If I had to believe in the author's intent about Lily, I would be in the camp of people who dislike her and say what they say. Her and James deserve each other. I don’t think I want to go there. Back to my own headcanon where I like Lily.

They died real young. And I do think both were going stir-crazy at Godric's Hollow. (Is there any The Shinning inspired fanfiction with Lily, James and Harry at Godric’s Hallow?) I always assumed that is why Dumbledore took away James’ invisibility cloak because he didn’t trust James to use it. But I also think that Dumbledore didn’t know about his animagus form and he went out anyway.

Anyway, enough of them. When I write fanfiction. I do have to try and find the humanity in the characters.

I also think I have gone on too long and many have checked out, fallen asleep or left the building.

I won’t go into Snape and Lily. I see there is another Meta I will save for later.

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#5 · September 26, 2026, 12:16 pm

looking forward to reading this when I get the chance : )

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#6 · September 26, 2026, 12:37 pm

Part IV

Or Sev and Lily have to be an ideal couple split up by wicked James, or alternatively Sev has to be a stalker who was friendzoned,

I do think that James did play a part in breaking them up dramatically. Lily and Severus were at that age where the summer would have probably decided whether they would grow closer or grow apart. He wouldn’t have called her mudblood out of anger and there wouldn’t have been a scene in front of the entire school. Peturnia would probably have asked Lily “Why isn’t that boy around anymore?” and Lily would say, “ We just grew apart and I told him I can’t be friends with him since he is hanging around a bad crowd. I worry for him, but he has made his choice.”

I personally have not seen this, because it is usually shut down by people who love the Mauraders and hate Snape or people who love Snape and hate Lily.

even though in the books there's no evidence that Lily ever fancied Sev and very little that he ever fancied her.

There is also no evidence in the books that Harry had a bowl movement, but it doesn’t mean it couldn’t have happened. There is a lot of room for back stories in canon that the reader can fill in anyway she wants to. Just make the story interesting and believable.

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#7 · September 26, 2026, 12:51 pm

Part V

"Snape's continuing devotion to Lily has to be primarily sexual, according to this section of the fandom, even though there's no evidence that it was in the books."

I am not saying it is or isn’t, but what I am saying is that there are many things that are not in the books that the reader has to come up with their own back stories. And where was it supposed to come in? Snape's memories? Lupin and Sirius telling Harry?

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#8 · September 26, 2026, 6:33 pm

Part VI

"Then you have to consider that most Potter fen are women, and women tend to identify with the character who suffers most. That tends to be seen as either Snape or Sirius, so you have people passionately devoted to one or other of two characters who are enemies."

No. I liked Snape before I knew his back story. There is no rhyme or reason why women like a character.

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#9 · September 26, 2026, 6:38 pm

Part VII

"I've been active in fandom since 1981 and I have never known a character be loved as deeply by as many people as Snape is loved. And of course those of us who love Snape are irritated by the fact that so many of the people who dislike Snape, dislike him "

I personally can’t even understand it myself. My love for Snape. I used to get very emotional too when I saw hateful comments about Snape. I didn’t understand the hate and the personal attacks on the fans. But I have learned to stay away from certain sections of fandom

"Addendum:"

Yes. I agree with what was said there.

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#10 · September 26, 2026, 6:44 pm

Okay. I was finally able to post in bits and pieces. I kept on getting an error message. I tried turning on and off my computer. Using quotes instead of bold and italic. Taking out the photo. There was one paragraph that always in the posts no matter how I divided it. I was going on about an actor and not in a bad way. But I take it that this site might not allow this actor's name to be mentioned. So if I ever want to mention him again, I will have to remember to go by The Actor Who Should Not Be Named. I did mention another actor, so maybe it was him. 🤨

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