Weekly Discussion: Favoritism

#11 · June 19, 2023, 2:48 pm

Quote from Naaga on June 19, 2023, 2:48 pm
I liked all of your posts of responses @darkangel, @kris and @giosnape.

Yeah, here comes my take. Some of the lines are taken from Meta: The Abandoned boy and Problematic father: Snape with Voldemort & Dumbledore, it is well written and be sure to check it out.

This is Snape's side of feelings for Voldemort: Speculation aside, what we do know is that teenage Snape shows signs of unstable identity, insecurity - all prime for grooming into a cult. He also shows a disorganised attachment style. His caregiver, his mother is too preoccupied by her own abuse to be there for her son - we see this in glimpses Harry sees in OOTP: "woman cowering" where a man shouts at her, and a young, neglected Snape cries in the corner. Children born in homes like this have trouble regulating their emotions, simultaneously displaying tendencies to aggressively lash out or show disassociative symptoms. Both of which Snape displays. Statistically, this is also seen more in low income households where economic instability and resulting domestic instability creates an unsafe environment for the kids to safely form ideas of their identity, or express emotions in healthy ways, modelling instead out of behaviour seen at home. I believe Voldemort, as the man who has experimented with boundaries of magic in ways no one else has, is an attractive father figure for someone like Snape (and Barty Jr. as well). After all, Snape spends his spare time inventing hexes, making great shortcuts to Potions. He has a genuine thirst for learning and is inventive and original. In SWM, we see that he has written far more longer answers than anyone else, he is poring over his paper after exams. Voldemort, as a man who pushed boundaries, is an attractive mentor who shows him a new path. Joining a cult not only gives you power and protection (one he desperately needs because of his social inferiority and as someone who is relentlessly bullied), but it also gives you an identity. Cults usually instill a homogenous, stable identity centered around charismatic leader. Cults turn your unbearable feelings (sense of rejection, social inferiority), and externalise it and manage to a higher purpose. A cult acts as a safe container for people who cannot understand their trauma or overpowering feelings. As a boy with an unstable identity, it is easier for him to project on Voldemort and re-enact an attachment that he has rejected in early childhood: the one with his father. Voldemort also reinforces a world view that the system had taught a half blood working class boy with nowhere to go arrives at: "There is no good or evil. There is only power and those too weak to seek it". And then, Voldemort does something Snape he doesn’t believe a father figure could do, something he cannot conform to or abide by - he threatens the only relationship in his life that he puts on a pedestal. To ensure Lily Potter’s survival beyond asking Voldemort (who he no longer trusts to keep his word), he goes to Dumbledore. Why doesn't he trust Voldemort to keep his word? We don't really know, but given the dynamics we see at play in the first chapter of DH, where Voldemort employs Legliemency to confirm the information from Snape, the trusted spy who at that point had killed Dumbledore - it is safe to say ruling through absolute control can only take you so far. Contrast this with his later scenes with Dumbledore, where Dumbledore trusts him with magic he does not trust himself with: "I am very fortunate that I have you, Severus" . .

We don't know much about Voldemort's feelings about others considering his lack of understanding of love. He measured people based on their usefulness and often rewarded those tools to keep them firm under his control. Snape was useful for spying in 1st and 2nd was and instrumental in bringing prophecy that's why he indulged in trying to spare Lily till he fucked up by his lack of understanding of love thinking Snape would go around other pure blood witches and permanently turned Snape against him by killing her. He tried rewarding Snape after killing Dumbledore with unaided flight and Headmastership in Hogwarts. Later, Voldemort weighted between Snape's use and Elder wand's utility and ultimately chose wand. He regretted losing his most useful tool and that's why he said he regretted it. He showed far more emotion on deaths of Nagini and Bellatrix.

I liked all of your posts of responses @darkangel, @kris and @giosnape.

Yeah, here comes my take. Some of the lines are taken from Meta: The Abandoned boy and Problematic father: Snape with Voldemort & Dumbledore, it is well written and be sure to check it out.

This is Snape's side of feelings for Voldemort: Speculation aside, what we do know is that teenage Snape shows signs of unstable identity, insecurity - all prime for grooming into a cult. He also shows a disorganised attachment style. His caregiver, his mother is too preoccupied by her own abuse to be there for her son - we see this in glimpses Harry sees in OOTP: "woman cowering" where a man shouts at her, and a young, neglected Snape cries in the corner. Children born in homes like this have trouble regulating their emotions, simultaneously displaying tendencies to aggressively lash out or show disassociative symptoms. Both of which Snape displays. Statistically, this is also seen more in low income households where economic instability and resulting domestic instability creates an unsafe environment for the kids to safely form ideas of their identity, or express emotions in healthy ways, modelling instead out of behaviour seen at home. I believe Voldemort, as the man who has experimented with boundaries of magic in ways no one else has, is an attractive father figure for someone like Snape (and Barty Jr. as well). After all, Snape spends his spare time inventing hexes, making great shortcuts to Potions. He has a genuine thirst for learning and is inventive and original. In SWM, we see that he has written far more longer answers than anyone else, he is poring over his paper after exams. Voldemort, as a man who pushed boundaries, is an attractive mentor who shows him a new path. Joining a cult not only gives you power and protection (one he desperately needs because of his social inferiority and as someone who is relentlessly bullied), but it also gives you an identity. Cults usually instill a homogenous, stable identity centered around charismatic leader. Cults turn your unbearable feelings (sense of rejection, social inferiority), and externalise it and manage to a higher purpose. A cult acts as a safe container for people who cannot understand their trauma or overpowering feelings. As a boy with an unstable identity, it is easier for him to project on Voldemort and re-enact an attachment that he has rejected in early childhood: the one with his father. Voldemort also reinforces a world view that the system had taught a half blood working class boy with nowhere to go arrives at: "There is no good or evil. There is only power and those too weak to seek it". And then, Voldemort does something Snape he doesn’t believe a father figure could do, something he cannot conform to or abide by - he threatens the only relationship in his life that he puts on a pedestal. To ensure Lily Potter’s survival beyond asking Voldemort (who he no longer trusts to keep his word), he goes to Dumbledore. Why doesn't he trust Voldemort to keep his word? We don't really know, but given the dynamics we see at play in the first chapter of DH, where Voldemort employs Legliemency to confirm the information from Snape, the trusted spy who at that point had killed Dumbledore - it is safe to say ruling through absolute control can only take you so far. Contrast this with his later scenes with Dumbledore, where Dumbledore trusts him with magic he does not trust himself with: "I am very fortunate that I have you, Severus" . .

We don't know much about Voldemort's feelings about others considering his lack of understanding of love. He measured people based on their usefulness and often rewarded those tools to keep them firm under his control. Snape was useful for spying in 1st and 2nd was and instrumental in bringing prophecy that's why he indulged in trying to spare Lily till he fucked up by his lack of understanding of love thinking Snape would go around other pure blood witches and permanently turned Snape against him by killing her. He tried rewarding Snape after killing Dumbledore with unaided flight and Headmastership in Hogwarts. Later, Voldemort weighted between Snape's use and Elder wand's utility and ultimately chose wand. He regretted losing his most useful tool and that's why he said he regretted it. He showed far more emotion on deaths of Nagini and Bellatrix.

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#12 · June 20, 2023, 1:05 pm

3. Today's discussion: What do you think about Snape's relationship with Albus Dumbledore?

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#13 · June 20, 2023, 1:53 pm

Quote from Naaga on June 20, 2023, 1:05 pm

Today's discussion: What do you think about Snape's relationship with Albus Dumbledore?

In the sweetest and most idyllic version possible, I would like to say a father-son relationship.
Unfortunately, it was never like that, because for Albus he was the most valuable pawn on his chessboard.
In his school days he left young Severus alone without any support, even when Sirius Black played that terrible trick on him.
He was never supported by Albus because he was the unwanted Slytherin boy.
When he went to him, as we well know, to keep Lily safe, he began to use him at will for the fate of the war.
On the other hand, I think Severus was hoping for a paternal relationship, but with little result.
I am reminded of their conversations during the sixth book, when Severus wants to know more about Albus and Harry's meetings, but of course the headmaster tells him as little as possible....

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#14 · June 20, 2023, 3:02 pm

I would say almost the same as with Voldemort but I would like to think that Dumbledore and Snape grew fond of each other over the years and that Albus became a kind of mentor.

I don't see Dumbledore as evil but rather as a person who is ready to make the difficult decisions even if they appear to be cruel and that includes sending people he cares about to their death if it is for the "greater good."

Am I over the fact that he set Snape up to die? No, no, I'm not but I understand why it had to be that way and I'm sure Severus knew form the very beginning how dangerous his position as a spy is.

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#15 · June 20, 2023, 3:21 pm

I'm going to say that Dumbledore started off not liking Snape, which we see when Snape comes to him to protect Lily, and then Dumbledore's general coldness when Snape is mourning her death. But over time, specifically when Voldemort returns, I think Dumbledore's grown to appreciate Snape, but he's still not fully trusting him for the reasons already listed above.

I think Dumbledore saw himself as the planner and Snape as the follower, constantly in an unequal dynamic, and that the former didn't fully trust Snape's judgment or decision-making skills (whether or not he was right); the ironic thing is that, had Dumbledore's original plan for the Elder Wand worked (with Snape becoming the wand's new Master), then Voldemort would've successfully become the Master of the Wand after using Nagini to kill Snape. Meanwhile, Snape's cover remained perfectly intact, despite different ways in which he risked exposure, acting off-script when he tried to save someone's life in the Battle of the Seven Potters and accidentally severing George's ear. I think, had Dumbledore given more trust to Snape, the two of them could have planned out their strategy against Voldemort much better.

That being said, I will give Dumbledore this: he trusted Snape enough with his death, effectively giving him the Elder Wand.

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#16 · June 20, 2023, 8:09 pm

Quote from JaySM on June 20, 2023, 8:09 pm

Quote from Naaga on June 20, 2023, 1:05 pm

Today's discussion: What do you think about Snape's relationship with Albus Dumbledore?

This is going to be a long one. (^_^)"

I think Dumbledore kept Severus at arm's length because he saw himself in him.

Dumbledore had dabbled in the dark arts and had made extremist plans in his teen years with Grindelwald but after Arianna's death, he sought to distance himself from it and never breathed a word about it to anyone.

Having Severus come to him, seeking a change in allegiance was more than just luck for Dumbledore, it was a sign of history repeating itself, especially after Lily's death.

Dumbledore to Arianna and Severus to Lily.

He understood Severus's guilt like it was his own and was able to manipulate Severus to live. Sure it was selfish at first but I'd like to think that through Severus, Dumbledore was able to move on from the past and live life more merrily with the persona of the man he would have preferred he was all along.

Severus saw Dumbledore as a moral figure with a lot of power and experience under his belt. The epitome of good. To Severus, Dumbledore exuded the morality Lily once followed so he followed it to become the good she saw in him.

That projection of "moral figure" was the cage Dumbledore placed upon himself as a reminder of what it was like to be enthralled by that dark arts and the outcome of such exposure leading to the death of his sister. That cage became the goal of who he wanted to become, and the more he heard of how great of a man he was, (or how well accomplished he was) he began to believe he already reached the goal of a highly moral wizard.

But as the second war rose, and the road to Voldemort's death became clear, he was pressured to make unsavory decisions and the reminder of who he once was reared its ugly head. The moment "for the greater good" came out of Dumbledore's lips it probably had him rearing his head in surprise.

His one saving grace was Severus though. He was the constant.

He looks at Severus who has more than dabbled in the Dark Arts and still the man risked his life to spy and save lives. Dumbledore saw himself in Severus and internally reaffirmed their goal remained the same, defeat Voldemort. That's why it was so surprising to him when Severus stood up with "You have used me" after discovering that Harry needed to die in the Prince's Tale. He thought they were on the same page but while Severus was still on under the impression they were protecting Harry for Lily, Dumbledore was feeling the acute moral turmoil on how to bring Voldemort's defeat which could only come from Harry's sacrifice. An innocent. Another Arianna. It highlighted their differences.Severus's view of Dumbledore being a purely moral wizard would have been challenged that night.

Things began to spiral downward after Dumbledore's death when the Headmaster finally passed on the baton in more ways than one. Severus was probably feeling lonely, with his life being as out of control as it was. Even Dumbledore's final message to Harry would not go into action unless he could meet with the boy and who knew when that was going to be. He probably began to question whether he would be further tainting his soul by damning Harry's life. All of his years of service to the Order and all of the efforts to protect Harry, would have amounted to nothing because Harry was somehow doomed to die. That's why Lily's letter in Severus's memory in the Prince's Tale was so monumental. It was Severus's discovery of who Dumbledore really was not who he projected and when he found the wizard he thought was pure was as tainted as him. He wasn't alone. Dumbledore, a once dark wizard was able to change the world for the better. He was able to do what was difficult in spite of his past. It was now Severus's turn.

Miles away, at the same time in the books, Harry was also going through the same discovery but through Rita Skeeter's book on Dumbledore. In a way, this brief history of Dumbledore allowed both these men to come to terms with what was needed to defeat Voldemort. Severus moreso than Harry.

I find it ironic that while Lily and Arianna died before Severus and Dumbledore. Dumbledore's innocent (Harry) and the last of Lily's love (Harry) had to survive them both for them to fully be able to let their guilt go.

To Dumbledore, Severus was everything he had hidden away.

To Severus, Dumbledore was who he once aspired to be.

Quote from Naaga on June 20, 2023, 1:05 pm

Today's discussion: What do you think about Snape's relationship with Albus Dumbledore?

This is going to be a long one. (^_^)"

I think Dumbledore kept Severus at arm's length because he saw himself in him.

Dumbledore had dabbled in the dark arts and had made extremist plans in his teen years with Grindelwald but after Arianna's death, he sought to distance himself from it and never breathed a word about it to anyone.

Having Severus come to him, seeking a change in allegiance was more than just luck for Dumbledore, it was a sign of history repeating itself, especially after Lily's death.

Dumbledore to Arianna and Severus to Lily.

He understood Severus's guilt like it was his own and was able to manipulate Severus to live. Sure it was selfish at first but I'd like to think that through Severus, Dumbledore was able to move on from the past and live life more merrily with the persona of the man he would have preferred he was all along.

Severus saw Dumbledore as a moral figure with a lot of power and experience under his belt. The epitome of good. To Severus, Dumbledore exuded the morality Lily once followed so he followed it to become the good she saw in him.

That projection of "moral figure" was the cage Dumbledore placed upon himself as a reminder of what it was like to be enthralled by that dark arts and the outcome of such exposure leading to the death of his sister. That cage became the goal of who he wanted to become, and the more he heard of how great of a man he was, (or how well accomplished he was) he began to believe he already reached the goal of a highly moral wizard.

But as the second war rose, and the road to Voldemort's death became clear, he was pressured to make unsavory decisions and the reminder of who he once was reared its ugly head. The moment "for the greater good" came out of Dumbledore's lips it probably had him rearing his head in surprise.

His one saving grace was Severus though. He was the constant.

He looks at Severus who has more than dabbled in the Dark Arts and still the man risked his life to spy and save lives. Dumbledore saw himself in Severus and internally reaffirmed their goal remained the same, defeat Voldemort. That's why it was so surprising to him when Severus stood up with "You have used me" after discovering that Harry needed to die in the Prince's Tale. He thought they were on the same page but while Severus was still on under the impression they were protecting Harry for Lily, Dumbledore was feeling the acute moral turmoil on how to bring Voldemort's defeat which could only come from Harry's sacrifice. An innocent. Another Arianna. It highlighted their differences.Severus's view of Dumbledore being a purely moral wizard would have been challenged that night.

Things began to spiral downward after Dumbledore's death when the Headmaster finally passed on the baton in more ways than one. Severus was probably feeling lonely, with his life being as out of control as it was. Even Dumbledore's final message to Harry would not go into action unless he could meet with the boy and who knew when that was going to be. He probably began to question whether he would be further tainting his soul by damning Harry's life. All of his years of service to the Order and all of the efforts to protect Harry, would have amounted to nothing because Harry was somehow doomed to die. That's why Lily's letter in Severus's memory in the Prince's Tale was so monumental. It was Severus's discovery of who Dumbledore really was not who he projected and when he found the wizard he thought was pure was as tainted as him. He wasn't alone. Dumbledore, a once dark wizard was able to change the world for the better. He was able to do what was difficult in spite of his past. It was now Severus's turn.

Miles away, at the same time in the books, Harry was also going through the same discovery but through Rita Skeeter's book on Dumbledore. In a way, this brief history of Dumbledore allowed both these men to come to terms with what was needed to defeat Voldemort. Severus moreso than Harry.

I find it ironic that while Lily and Arianna died before Severus and Dumbledore. Dumbledore's innocent (Harry) and the last of Lily's love (Harry) had to survive them both for them to fully be able to let their guilt go.

To Dumbledore, Severus was everything he had hidden away.

To Severus, Dumbledore was who he once aspired to be.

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#17 · June 21, 2023, 1:57 am

Quote from SanctuaryAngel on June 21, 2023, 1:57 am

Quote from Naaga on June 20, 2023, 1:05 pm

Today's discussion: What do you think about Snape's relationship with Albus Dumbledore?

My answer is a mixture of everyone's really.

In a nutshell, I think they were very dysfunctional friends, but I think each one of them saw each other in a very different way. It is a very complicated relationship and can't be defined in simple terms.

I feel like Severus saw Albus as a mentor and confidant. He trusted him enough to work together out of duty, but on a personal level, I feel they did not know each all that well. Albus definitely kept a lot hidden from Severus out of duty, but I think he refused to know him on a deeper level. Which, again, may be more out of duty.

What they knew of each other was out of necessity for the war. I think they both had some similarities, and I doubt Severus ever knew about Arianna, or at least Albus never spoke to him about it. The Arianna/Lily losses in a time when they turned to the Dark Side or were influenced by a greater power, drove them both to turn and work against those who tempted them. But I feel like they should have connected with this common ground, but didn't.

I do not have a lot of favorable things to say about Albus, but I do feel like he didn't consider Severus at all as a person, except for a chess piece in this game of chess. Severus was a very important piece, but one I don't think Albus prioritised to protect, or gave him much credit for. A lot of their interactions were Albus shutting down Severus' thoughts and feelings in the rare times he expressed them, ignoring the obvious pain and struggles there, and dismissing them. I don't think Albus allowed Severus much of a voice and didn't make much effort to ensure his protection. Severus' mission was a lonely one, so he already bared that burden, and Albus didn't do anything at all to lessen that.

There was definitely a coldness in their 'friendship' and I didn't see any real warmth there.

I do feel like Albus did hold him at arm's length because I think he knew Severus may not come out through this alive so he didn't want to get too emotionally attached to him as a friend.

Albus didn't do enough to make this easier for Severus, and they both lacked the empathy towards each other to consider them genuine friends in the true meaning of the word. Severus' life was in his hands, and yet it was gambled and treated almost insignificantly.

Quote from Naaga on June 20, 2023, 1:05 pm

Today's discussion: What do you think about Snape's relationship with Albus Dumbledore?

My answer is a mixture of everyone's really.

In a nutshell, I think they were very dysfunctional friends, but I think each one of them saw each other in a very different way. It is a very complicated relationship and can't be defined in simple terms.

I feel like Severus saw Albus as a mentor and confidant. He trusted him enough to work together out of duty, but on a personal level, I feel they did not know each all that well. Albus definitely kept a lot hidden from Severus out of duty, but I think he refused to know him on a deeper level. Which, again, may be more out of duty.

What they knew of each other was out of necessity for the war. I think they both had some similarities, and I doubt Severus ever knew about Arianna, or at least Albus never spoke to him about it. The Arianna/Lily losses in a time when they turned to the Dark Side or were influenced by a greater power, drove them both to turn and work against those who tempted them. But I feel like they should have connected with this common ground, but didn't.

I do not have a lot of favorable things to say about Albus, but I do feel like he didn't consider Severus at all as a person, except for a chess piece in this game of chess. Severus was a very important piece, but one I don't think Albus prioritised to protect, or gave him much credit for. A lot of their interactions were Albus shutting down Severus' thoughts and feelings in the rare times he expressed them, ignoring the obvious pain and struggles there, and dismissing them. I don't think Albus allowed Severus much of a voice and didn't make much effort to ensure his protection. Severus' mission was a lonely one, so he already bared that burden, and Albus didn't do anything at all to lessen that.

There was definitely a coldness in their 'friendship' and I didn't see any real warmth there.

I do feel like Albus did hold him at arm's length because I think he knew Severus may not come out through this alive so he didn't want to get too emotionally attached to him as a friend.

Albus didn't do enough to make this easier for Severus, and they both lacked the empathy towards each other to consider them genuine friends in the true meaning of the word. Severus' life was in his hands, and yet it was gambled and treated almost insignificantly.

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#18 · June 21, 2023, 2:39 am

Quote from Naaga on June 21, 2023, 2:39 am
Ok, everyone presented good views on Snape-Dumbledore dynamic and here comes my take on it. Some of the lines are taken from Meta: The Abandoned boy and Problematic father: Snape with Voldemort & Dumbledore.

I said in last discussion how Snape initially saw Voldemort as father figure who betrayed him. He went to Dumbledore in order to protect Lily. In his very first scene with Dumbledore, there is a power dynamic established. He visibly shrinks from Dumbledore’s judgement: “you disgust me”. He is also "stricken" when Dumbledore says "perhaps we Sort too soon" - indicating a need for Dumbledore’s approval and validation. (Dumbledore’s own reaction to Snape is interesting - he doesn’t express this kind of strong disgust with Fenrir Greyback in HBP, for example. Perhaps he sees something of himself in this man who lost his way?)

Their next scene together is a grief stricken Snape, who has turned his misery and self loathing inwards and wishes to die. Dumbledore is cold, harsh: “What use will that be to anyone? If you truly loved Lily Evans, your way forward is clear”. Once Snape accepts the path of atonement Dumbledore lays out for him, Dumbledore is demonstrably gentler with him and is even exasperated that Snape asks him to keep “the very best of him” between them.

Once Dumbledore becomes his new father figure, Snape’s loyalty to him is absolute. He will back up and defend Dumbledore where it is not even required - when people accuse Dumbledore in GOF of being unfair, Snape is quick to say: "Don't blame Dumbledore for Potter's lack of respect for school rules. Potter has been crossing lines ever since he first came" (Defending Dumbledore and insulting Harry at the same time, he has a talent lol). And at the end of GOF, he shows his Dark Mark to Cornelius Fudge, essentially outing himself as a former Death Eater to everyone present there, to back up Dumbledore's claims because Fudge was insulting him. Even in front of Bellatrix, he emphasises: "Dumbledore is a great wizard, yes he has - the Dark Lord acknowledges it"

He is also resentful of Dumbledore's trust in Harry with secrets that he is not privy to. He enjoys being Dumbledore's closest confidant ..("why may I not have the same secrets?" "You trust him, you do not trust me"). It's a less intense version of Harry's "This isn't love, this mess he has left me in. He shared a damn sight of what he was thinking with Grindelwald than with me”. He angrily tells Fake Moody that Dumbledore happens to trust him and he "refuses to believe" he gave permission to search his office. Similarly, he tells Umbridge "jerkily" to ask Dumbledore why he doesn't have the DADA job. Snape is offended at any suggestion of Dumbledore's lack of trust in him.

He also has a similar disillusionment like Harry's with Dumbledore - "you have used me. I have spied for you, lied for you, all intended to keep Lily Potter's son safe and now you are telling me he is being raised like a pig for slaughter". All of this and yet, just like Harry, he chooses to do what Dumbledore would have wanted of him. He goes as far as committing a sort of patricide, just like his former father figure (who did it for different reasons) on the wishes of his current father figure.

And ultimately, he chose Dumbledore's plan of Greater Good rather than Lily's fierce intention of keeping her son alive. It’s also interesting that Dumbledore, a queer, non conforming man is what Snape ultimately chooses as a father /mentor to his path of atonement.

As for Dumbledore's side of feelings, I think Dumbledore did care about Snape or at least came to care about him. His reaction in King's Cross chapter for Snape was saying, "Poor Severus". I don't think he set him up to die, it was some bad luck on part of Snape.

Dumbledore trusted Snape a lot, Voldemort employs Legliemency to confirm the information from Snape, the trusted spy who at that point had killed Dumbledore - it is safe to say ruling through absolute control can only take you so far. Contrast this with his later scenes with Dumbledore, where Dumbledore trusts him with magic he does not trust himself with: "I am very fortunate that I have you, Severus".

I agree with everyone that Dumbledore didn't share his personal life secrets like Arianna with Snape, it's similar to Harry not knowing much about Dumbledore's past till Rita's book.

But Dumbledore always prioritised "Greater Good" and didn't shy away from sacrificing anyone including himself. So war was more for important than survival of Snape and being secretive was always a nature of Dumbledore who kept a lion share of secrets to himself unless he had to share them.

Ok, everyone presented good views on Snape-Dumbledore dynamic and here comes my take on it. Some of the lines are taken from Meta: The Abandoned boy and Problematic father: Snape with Voldemort & Dumbledore.

I said in last discussion how Snape initially saw Voldemort as father figure who betrayed him. He went to Dumbledore in order to protect Lily. In his very first scene with Dumbledore, there is a power dynamic established. He visibly shrinks from Dumbledore’s judgement: “you disgust me”. He is also "stricken" when Dumbledore says "perhaps we Sort too soon" - indicating a need for Dumbledore’s approval and validation. (Dumbledore’s own reaction to Snape is interesting - he doesn’t express this kind of strong disgust with Fenrir Greyback in HBP, for example. Perhaps he sees something of himself in this man who lost his way?)

Their next scene together is a grief stricken Snape, who has turned his misery and self loathing inwards and wishes to die. Dumbledore is cold, harsh: “What use will that be to anyone? If you truly loved Lily Evans, your way forward is clear”. Once Snape accepts the path of atonement Dumbledore lays out for him, Dumbledore is demonstrably gentler with him and is even exasperated that Snape asks him to keep “the very best of him” between them.

Once Dumbledore becomes his new father figure, Snape’s loyalty to him is absolute. He will back up and defend Dumbledore where it is not even required - when people accuse Dumbledore in GOF of being unfair, Snape is quick to say: "Don't blame Dumbledore for Potter's lack of respect for school rules. Potter has been crossing lines ever since he first came" (Defending Dumbledore and insulting Harry at the same time, he has a talent lol). And at the end of GOF, he shows his Dark Mark to Cornelius Fudge, essentially outing himself as a former Death Eater to everyone present there, to back up Dumbledore's claims because Fudge was insulting him. Even in front of Bellatrix, he emphasises: "Dumbledore is a great wizard, yes he has - the Dark Lord acknowledges it"

He is also resentful of Dumbledore's trust in Harry with secrets that he is not privy to. He enjoys being Dumbledore's closest confidant ..("why may I not have the same secrets?" "You trust him, you do not trust me"). It's a less intense version of Harry's "This isn't love, this mess he has left me in. He shared a damn sight of what he was thinking with Grindelwald than with me”. He angrily tells Fake Moody that Dumbledore happens to trust him and he "refuses to believe" he gave permission to search his office. Similarly, he tells Umbridge "jerkily" to ask Dumbledore why he doesn't have the DADA job. Snape is offended at any suggestion of Dumbledore's lack of trust in him.

He also has a similar disillusionment like Harry's with Dumbledore - "you have used me. I have spied for you, lied for you, all intended to keep Lily Potter's son safe and now you are telling me he is being raised like a pig for slaughter". All of this and yet, just like Harry, he chooses to do what Dumbledore would have wanted of him. He goes as far as committing a sort of patricide, just like his former father figure (who did it for different reasons) on the wishes of his current father figure.

And ultimately, he chose Dumbledore's plan of Greater Good rather than Lily's fierce intention of keeping her son alive. It’s also interesting that Dumbledore, a queer, non conforming man is what Snape ultimately chooses as a father /mentor to his path of atonement.

As for Dumbledore's side of feelings, I think Dumbledore did care about Snape or at least came to care about him. His reaction in King's Cross chapter for Snape was saying, "Poor Severus". I don't think he set him up to die, it was some bad luck on part of Snape.

Dumbledore trusted Snape a lot, Voldemort employs Legliemency to confirm the information from Snape, the trusted spy who at that point had killed Dumbledore - it is safe to say ruling through absolute control can only take you so far. Contrast this with his later scenes with Dumbledore, where Dumbledore trusts him with magic he does not trust himself with: "I am very fortunate that I have you, Severus".

I agree with everyone that Dumbledore didn't share his personal life secrets like Arianna with Snape, it's similar to Harry not knowing much about Dumbledore's past till Rita's book.

But Dumbledore always prioritised "Greater Good" and didn't shy away from sacrificing anyone including himself. So war was more for important than survival of Snape and being secretive was always a nature of Dumbledore who kept a lion share of secrets to himself unless he had to share them.

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#19 · June 21, 2023, 6:01 am

4. Today's discussion: What do you think about Snape's relationship with other Hogwarts staff members?

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#20 · June 21, 2023, 6:20 am

Quote from Naaga on June 21, 2023, 6:01 am

Today's discussion: What do you think about Snape's relationship with other Hogwarts staff members?

In my Headcancon and in my fondest dreams Severus has a very good relationship with Minerva, considering her almost a mother/confidant.
Unfortunately, I think the reality is quite different.
Especially when in HBP, when Albus died, Minerva made a very unfortunate statement towards Severus.
Apparently, if we were to follow her words, no lecturer was 100% convinced of Snape's loyalty, rather they looked at him with suspicion failing to understand Dumbledore's trust in him.
I believe that during the years when he was a professor Severus was always alone and did not create real emotional bonds with his colleagues, at most a few exchanges of banter, I think this was also due to the fact that during his student years the educational institutions had completely abandoned the teenage Severus without ever adopting severe punishments against the marauders.

All of this may have affected his subsequent relationship with his former professors and now colleagues, that trust that should have been established did not have a solid foundation....
I feel a deep sadness to think that here again our Severus was alone and misunderstood.

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