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Weekly Discussion: Favoritism

#241 · November 26, 2023, 6:26 am

I believe the only one who would have known that Harry would survive the encounter with Voldemort was Dumbledore and I'm still doubtful about it. From the memories it seems that Snape was pretty sure that Harry is supposed to die that's why he felt so used; he had agreed to protect the boy for Lily's sake and now he is supposed to send him to his death? How can he make it up to Lily now and atone for his sins? Allowing the boy to die makes all his efforts up to that point so futile and meaningless but not only that; Lily's sacrifice would have been in vain as well if the boy is meant to die anyway, why did she have to lose her life to protect him?

The fact that he gave Harry the memories so he could die for the greater good is what I see as prove that Snape changed and although Lily was the catalyst for the change, she didn't remain the end. If it had been only about Lily by the end, it would make more sense for Snape to kidnap Harry and flee the country or even tell the Dark Lord the truth so he stops hunting the boy down and even actively protects him for his own sake.

It proves that Snape learned from Dumbledore and that for the greater good, sacrifices have to be made.

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#242 · December 9, 2023, 1:10 am

Quote from Naaga on December 9, 2023, 1:10 am
While I used to think that Snape didn't know about Harry's eventual survival, some things from books and looking from different angle, perhaps Snape knew Harry would survive.

‘So the boy … the boy must die?’ asked Snape, quite calmly.
‘And Voldemort himself must do it, Severus. That is essential.’

Now, this line of Dumbledore that Voldemort must himself kill Harry is what convinced me, something like Snape could've asked why only Voldemort, why not someone other. I must also point out while pensieve memories weren't fabricated, they can be started and terminated like a video. Perhaps Dumbledore later explained Snape that only chance Harry has of survival is by dieing at the hands of Voldemort after his famous "Always", but Snape terminated his memory video at Always.

‘Have you forgotten our orders? Potter belongs to the Dark Lord – we are to leave him! Go! Go!’

Later, we saw Snape protecting Harry at all points, if Harry had to die, why not let the boy die from someone else, but here Snape insisted that Potter belongs to Dark Lord. And this Snape had recently killed Dumbledor, and could've let Harry die here if Harry needed to die anyway.

‘I have been careless, and so have been thwarted by luck and chance, those wreckers of all but the best laid plans. But I know better now. I understand those things that I did not understand before. I must be the one to kill Harry Potter, and I shall be.’

This scene from 1st chapter of DH, where Voldemort states he must himself kill Harry. But why he thinks so and how he knows? I headcanon that knowing Harry must die at Voldemort's hands to survive, Dumbledore and Snape fed a false version of prophecy to Voldemort which could've been interpreted as Voldemort must himself kill Harry. Knowing how Voldemort punished Lucius for failure to procure prophecy in OOTP, Snape giving this false later half of prophecy ensured his increase in standing and making sure Voldemort himself kills Harry to give him a chance at survival.

I conclude that's why Snape kept protecting Harry even after knowing Harry must die otherwise why bother if boy was gonna die anyway. And knowing Dumbledore's trust in Snape, Dumbledore's must've imparted that piece of knowledge to Snape because he also wanted Harry to survive. Thus, Snape also had another reason to keep protecting Harry till he died at Voldemort's hands, having a chance at survival and fulfilling Snape's vow to protect Harry.

While I used to think that Snape didn't know about Harry's eventual survival, some things from books and looking from different angle, perhaps Snape knew Harry would survive.

‘So the boy … the boy must die?’ asked Snape, quite calmly.
‘And Voldemort himself must do it, Severus. That is essential.’

Now, this line of Dumbledore that Voldemort must himself kill Harry is what convinced me, something like Snape could've asked why only Voldemort, why not someone other. I must also point out while pensieve memories weren't fabricated, they can be started and terminated like a video. Perhaps Dumbledore later explained Snape that only chance Harry has of survival is by dieing at the hands of Voldemort after his famous "Always", but Snape terminated his memory video at Always.

‘Have you forgotten our orders? Potter belongs to the Dark Lord – we are to leave him! Go! Go!’

Later, we saw Snape protecting Harry at all points, if Harry had to die, why not let the boy die from someone else, but here Snape insisted that Potter belongs to Dark Lord. And this Snape had recently killed Dumbledor, and could've let Harry die here if Harry needed to die anyway.

‘I have been careless, and so have been thwarted by luck and chance, those wreckers of all but the best laid plans. But I know better now. I understand those things that I did not understand before. I must be the one to kill Harry Potter, and I shall be.’

This scene from 1st chapter of DH, where Voldemort states he must himself kill Harry. But why he thinks so and how he knows? I headcanon that knowing Harry must die at Voldemort's hands to survive, Dumbledore and Snape fed a false version of prophecy to Voldemort which could've been interpreted as Voldemort must himself kill Harry. Knowing how Voldemort punished Lucius for failure to procure prophecy in OOTP, Snape giving this false later half of prophecy ensured his increase in standing and making sure Voldemort himself kills Harry to give him a chance at survival.

I conclude that's why Snape kept protecting Harry even after knowing Harry must die otherwise why bother if boy was gonna die anyway. And knowing Dumbledore's trust in Snape, Dumbledore's must've imparted that piece of knowledge to Snape because he also wanted Harry to survive. Thus, Snape also had another reason to keep protecting Harry till he died at Voldemort's hands, having a chance at survival and fulfilling Snape's vow to protect Harry.

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#243 · December 11, 2023, 10:18 am

So, since my last post was swallowed and I'm way too lazy to type this out again. My reply will be much shorter.

I still believe that Snape didn't have access to all the relevant information and simply trusted Dumbledore as there wasn't much else he could do. I see it as out of character for Dumbledore to reveal all of his information to anyone not just Snape and it would also be way too risky to reveal the whole plan to someone who is very close to Voldemort. There is always the chance that Snape changes his mind and betrays them or that his occlumency fails against Voldemort, what then? If Voldemort realizes the truth, it would be disastrous, he would do everything in his power to protect his horcruxes. If Dumbledore was the kind to give proper and direct instructions, he wouldn't have forced the trio to figure so much out on their own.

I personally prefer Snape being in the dark about Harry's survival because, as I mentioned previously, for me it proves that by the end, it wasn't about Lily anymore but the greater good. Snape chooses to disappoint Lily once again to save as many as possible and prioritizes the greater good over protecting her son. If he had known that Harry would survive in any case, it would confirm the stance that Snapendidnt actually change for the better and only did what he did due to his obsession with her.

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#244 · December 11, 2023, 12:40 pm

Quote from Naaga on December 11, 2023, 12:40 pm

Quote from Dark Angel on December 11, 2023, 10:18 am

I still believe that Snape didn't have access to all the relevant information and simply trusted Dumbledore as there wasn't much else he could do. I see it as out of character for Dumbledore to reveal all of his information to anyone not just Snape and it would also be way too risky to reveal the whole plan to someone who is very close to Voldemort. There is always the chance that Snape changes his mind and betrays them or that his occlumency fails against Voldemort, what then? If Voldemort realizes the truth, it would be disastrous, he would do everything in his power to protect his horcruxes. If Dumbledore was the kind to give proper and direct instructions, he wouldn't have forced the trio to figure so much out on their own.

Yet Dumbledore revealed Snape about Harry having Voldemort's soul fragment so it was a vital information, and as of put it even that was likely risky. But Dumbledore needed to take that risk because he had enough trust in Snape's occulumency to reveal such information, I don't see it OOC for him to reveal Harry's likely chance of survival. Dumbledore kept information close that's true, but he still gave enough on occasions. If he hasn't told Snape about Harry's likely chance of survival, perhaps Snape could've gotten a little carefree and Harry died to someone or something other than Voldemort with a permanent death.

And Snape knowing about Harry's chance of survival doesn't mean he was doing it all for Lily. Only protecting Harry was a task he was doing out of her memory. Spying, double agent role, saving students and other people and watching people die whom he couldn't save was all he did all on his own. Harry admired Snape's bravery for this reason, not because he was silently protecting him. He admired his selfless sacrifices and adherence to duty, the sort of bravery hard for anyone to come across.

And Snape only knew Harry had a chance of survival, he couldn't have been sure. If he was only doing everything for Lily, he would've stormed straight outta Dumbledore's office after the revelation, and either flee away taking Harry to protect or said screw the war, I'm leaving. He stayed over for his sense of duty, to genuinely stand opposed to the Voldemort's cause and end the war.

Quote from Dark Angel on December 11, 2023, 10:18 am

I still believe that Snape didn't have access to all the relevant information and simply trusted Dumbledore as there wasn't much else he could do. I see it as out of character for Dumbledore to reveal all of his information to anyone not just Snape and it would also be way too risky to reveal the whole plan to someone who is very close to Voldemort. There is always the chance that Snape changes his mind and betrays them or that his occlumency fails against Voldemort, what then? If Voldemort realizes the truth, it would be disastrous, he would do everything in his power to protect his horcruxes. If Dumbledore was the kind to give proper and direct instructions, he wouldn't have forced the trio to figure so much out on their own.

Yet Dumbledore revealed Snape about Harry having Voldemort's soul fragment so it was a vital information, and as of put it even that was likely risky. But Dumbledore needed to take that risk because he had enough trust in Snape's occulumency to reveal such information, I don't see it OOC for him to reveal Harry's likely chance of survival. Dumbledore kept information close that's true, but he still gave enough on occasions. If he hasn't told Snape about Harry's likely chance of survival, perhaps Snape could've gotten a little carefree and Harry died to someone or something other than Voldemort with a permanent death.

And Snape knowing about Harry's chance of survival doesn't mean he was doing it all for Lily. Only protecting Harry was a task he was doing out of her memory. Spying, double agent role, saving students and other people and watching people die whom he couldn't save was all he did all on his own. Harry admired Snape's bravery for this reason, not because he was silently protecting him. He admired his selfless sacrifices and adherence to duty, the sort of bravery hard for anyone to come across.

And Snape only knew Harry had a chance of survival, he couldn't have been sure. If he was only doing everything for Lily, he would've stormed straight outta Dumbledore's office after the revelation, and either flee away taking Harry to protect or said screw the war, I'm leaving. He stayed over for his sense of duty, to genuinely stand opposed to the Voldemort's cause and end the war.

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#245 · January 2, 2024, 1:30 am

33. Do you think Dumbledore favored Snape?

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#246 · June 18, 2024, 12:48 pm

Quote from Naaga on June 18, 2024, 12:48 pm

Quote from The Gestalt Prince on January 2, 2024, 1:30 am

33. Do you think Dumbledore favored Snape?

Well, let's start analysing it.

Snape definitely wasn't favoured in Marauders era. He got injustice when he was a victim in the "Prank" where his attempted murderer got away with it.

Snape and Dumbledore didn't hold each other in high regard in their meeting in the first war. Snape thought of Dumbledore being capable of murder and his first words were "Please don't kill me" when he went to Dumbledore with his request. Dumbledore was also disgusted with Snape and he behaved harshly towards him.

Relations possibly improved after Snape's turning towards light. Dumbledore consoled Snape after Potters' demise and gave Snape reason to live.

Dumbledore defended Snape in Death Eater trials and said that Severus Snape rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort’s downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am. So by this point Dumbledore had a good opinion of Snape.

As a Professor is where Snape really got favoured. He got away his bullying of his students particularly Harry. Dumbledore never interfered in Snape's affairs as a teacher including all the detentions he assigned to Harry. Snape also had great deal of autonomy both as a Professor and as a spy. He got away with cancelling Harry's Occulomency lessons.

Dumbledore also defended Snape to everyone and Snape having his trust meant Snape was trusted nearly blindly by most of the Order before he killed Dumbledore.

Dumbledore showed great deal of trust in Snape in his role as spy and felt bad over Snape's death during his conversation with Harry in King's Cross.

Thus, Snape was overall favoured as a Professor and most of his adult life by Dumbledore. But it wasn't for free and Snape had most important role in the war, risking death everytime he went to Voldemort and Snape made a lot of sacrifices regarding Dumbledore and war, including his vows for the greater good of Dumbledore's orders.

Quote from The Gestalt Prince on January 2, 2024, 1:30 am

33. Do you think Dumbledore favored Snape?

Well, let's start analysing it.

Snape definitely wasn't favoured in Marauders era. He got injustice when he was a victim in the "Prank" where his attempted murderer got away with it.
Snape and Dumbledore didn't hold each other in high regard in their meeting in the first war. Snape thought of Dumbledore being capable of murder and his first words were "Please don't kill me" when he went to Dumbledore with his request. Dumbledore was also disgusted with Snape and he behaved harshly towards him.
Relations possibly improved after Snape's turning towards light. Dumbledore consoled Snape after Potters' demise and gave Snape reason to live.
Dumbledore defended Snape in Death Eater trials and said that Severus Snape rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort’s downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am. So by this point Dumbledore had a good opinion of Snape.
As a Professor is where Snape really got favoured. He got away his bullying of his students particularly Harry. Dumbledore never interfered in Snape's affairs as a teacher including all the detentions he assigned to Harry. Snape also had great deal of autonomy both as a Professor and as a spy. He got away with cancelling Harry's Occulomency lessons.
Dumbledore also defended Snape to everyone and Snape having his trust meant Snape was trusted nearly blindly by most of the Order before he killed Dumbledore.
Dumbledore showed great deal of trust in Snape in his role as spy and felt bad over Snape's death during his conversation with Harry in King's Cross.

Thus, Snape was overall favoured as a Professor and most of his adult life by Dumbledore. But it wasn't for free and Snape had most important role in the war, risking death everytime he went to Voldemort and Snape made a lot of sacrifices regarding Dumbledore and war, including his vows for the greater good of Dumbledore's orders.

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#247 · June 21, 2024, 11:42 pm

Quote from Dust Collector on June 21, 2024, 11:42 pm

Quote from Naaga on June 18, 2024, 12:48 pm

Quote from The Gestalt Prince on January 2, 2024, 1:30 am

33. Do you think Dumbledore favored Snape?

Well, let's start analysing it.

Snape definitely wasn't favoured in Marauders era. He got injustice when he was a victim in the "Prank" where his attempted murderer got away with it.

Snape and Dumbledore didn't hold each other in high regard in their meeting in the first war. Snape thought of Dumbledore being capable of murder and his first words were "Please don't kill me" when he went to Dumbledore with his request. Dumbledore was also disgusted with Snape and he behaved harshly towards him.

Relations possibly improved after Snape's turning towards light. Dumbledore consoled Snape after Potters' demise and gave Snape reason to live.

Dumbledore defended Snape in Death Eater trials and said that Severus Snape rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort’s downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am. So by this point Dumbledore had a good opinion of Snape.

As a Professor is where Snape really got favoured. He got away his bullying of his students particularly Harry. Dumbledore never interfered in Snape's affairs as a teacher including all the detentions he assigned to Harry. Snape also had great deal of autonomy both as a Professor and as a spy. He got away with cancelling Harry's Occulomency lessons.

Dumbledore also defended Snape to everyone and Snape having his trust meant Snape was trusted nearly blindly by most of the Order before he killed Dumbledore.

Dumbledore showed great deal of trust in Snape in his role as spy and felt bad over Snape's death during his conversation with Harry in King's Cross.

Thus, Snape was overall favoured as a Professor and most of his adult life by Dumbledore. But it wasn't for free and Snape had most important role in the war, risking death everytime he went to Voldemort and Snape made a lot of sacrifices regarding Dumbledore and war, including his vows for the greater good of Dumbledore's orders.

While I mostly agree with this, was he really favoured as a professor? It seems to me that Dumbledore never really interfered with anyone's teaching methods/detentions, no matter how in/appropriate those were. I feel like Severus was simply treated like the rest of the staff. (That said, good point about the Occlumency. It is my extremely personal opinion, but I feel like Severus cancelling it reminded Dumbledore that he was a person with his own set of issues, not just a tool to be used.)

Also, I'm not sure how much did Dumbledore defend Severus with the exception of the trial. It's been a while since I've re-read the books, so it's entirely possible I'm wrong, but to me it seemed that the other professors started to trust Severus simply because Dumbledore hired him and didn't mind having him around. After all, Minerva's quote "Snape... we all wondered... but he trusted... always... " makes it sound like there has always been some doubt.

Quote from Naaga on June 18, 2024, 12:48 pm

Quote from The Gestalt Prince on January 2, 2024, 1:30 am

33. Do you think Dumbledore favored Snape?

Well, let's start analysing it.

Snape definitely wasn't favoured in Marauders era. He got injustice when he was a victim in the "Prank" where his attempted murderer got away with it.

Snape and Dumbledore didn't hold each other in high regard in their meeting in the first war. Snape thought of Dumbledore being capable of murder and his first words were "Please don't kill me" when he went to Dumbledore with his request. Dumbledore was also disgusted with Snape and he behaved harshly towards him.

Relations possibly improved after Snape's turning towards light. Dumbledore consoled Snape after Potters' demise and gave Snape reason to live.

Dumbledore defended Snape in Death Eater trials and said that Severus Snape rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort’s downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am. So by this point Dumbledore had a good opinion of Snape.

As a Professor is where Snape really got favoured. He got away his bullying of his students particularly Harry. Dumbledore never interfered in Snape's affairs as a teacher including all the detentions he assigned to Harry. Snape also had great deal of autonomy both as a Professor and as a spy. He got away with cancelling Harry's Occulomency lessons.

Dumbledore also defended Snape to everyone and Snape having his trust meant Snape was trusted nearly blindly by most of the Order before he killed Dumbledore.

Dumbledore showed great deal of trust in Snape in his role as spy and felt bad over Snape's death during his conversation with Harry in King's Cross.

Thus, Snape was overall favoured as a Professor and most of his adult life by Dumbledore. But it wasn't for free and Snape had most important role in the war, risking death everytime he went to Voldemort and Snape made a lot of sacrifices regarding Dumbledore and war, including his vows for the greater good of Dumbledore's orders.

While I mostly agree with this, was he really favoured as a professor? It seems to me that Dumbledore never really interfered with anyone's teaching methods/detentions, no matter how in/appropriate those were. I feel like Severus was simply treated like the rest of the staff. (That said, good point about the Occlumency. It is my extremely personal opinion, but I feel like Severus cancelling it reminded Dumbledore that he was a person with his own set of issues, not just a tool to be used.)

Also, I'm not sure how much did Dumbledore defend Severus with the exception of the trial. It's been a while since I've re-read the books, so it's entirely possible I'm wrong, but to me it seemed that the other professors started to trust Severus simply because Dumbledore hired him and didn't mind having him around. After all, Minerva's quote "Snape... we all wondered... but he trusted... always... " makes it sound like there has always been some doubt.

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#248 · June 22, 2024, 3:36 am

Quote from Naaga on June 22, 2024, 3:36 am

Quote from Dust Collector on June 21, 2024, 11:42 pm

Quote from Naaga on June 18, 2024, 12:48 pm

Quote from The Gestalt Prince on January 2, 2024, 1:30 am

33. Do you think Dumbledore favored Snape?

Well, let's start analysing it.

Snape definitely wasn't favoured in Marauders era. He got injustice when he was a victim in the "Prank" where his attempted murderer got away with it.

Snape and Dumbledore didn't hold each other in high regard in their meeting in the first war. Snape thought of Dumbledore being capable of murder and his first words were "Please don't kill me" when he went to Dumbledore with his request. Dumbledore was also disgusted with Snape and he behaved harshly towards him.

Relations possibly improved after Snape's turning towards light. Dumbledore consoled Snape after Potters' demise and gave Snape reason to live.

Dumbledore defended Snape in Death Eater trials and said that Severus Snape rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort’s downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am. So by this point Dumbledore had a good opinion of Snape.

As a Professor is where Snape really got favoured. He got away his bullying of his students particularly Harry. Dumbledore never interfered in Snape's affairs as a teacher including all the detentions he assigned to Harry. Snape also had great deal of autonomy both as a Professor and as a spy. He got away with cancelling Harry's Occulomency lessons.

Dumbledore also defended Snape to everyone and Snape having his trust meant Snape was trusted nearly blindly by most of the Order before he killed Dumbledore.

Dumbledore showed great deal of trust in Snape in his role as spy and felt bad over Snape's death during his conversation with Harry in King's Cross.

Thus, Snape was overall favoured as a Professor and most of his adult life by Dumbledore. But it wasn't for free and Snape had most important role in the war, risking death everytime he went to Voldemort and Snape made a lot of sacrifices regarding Dumbledore and war, including his vows for the greater good of Dumbledore's orders.

While I mostly agree with this, was he really favoured as a professor? It seems to me that Dumbledore never really interfered with anyone's teaching methods/detentions, no matter how in/appropriate those were. I feel like Severus was simply treated like the rest of the staff. (That said, good point about the Occlumency. It is my extremely personal opinion, but I feel like Severus cancelling it reminded Dumbledore that he was a person with his own set of issues, not just a tool to be used.)

Also, I'm not sure how much did Dumbledore defend Severus with the exception of the trial. It's been a while since I've re-read the books, so it's entirely possible I'm wrong, but to me it seemed that the other professors started to trust Severus simply because Dumbledore hired him and didn't mind having him around. After all, Minerva's quote "Snape... we all wondered... but he trusted... always... " makes it sound like there has always been some doubt.

I agree that Dumbledore was pretty much non interfering with business of the other teachers, like many of shenanigans of Lockhart and Hagrid.

I think Dumbledore by this point had a good grip of character of Snape, allowing autonomy is trusting his judgement. Dumbledore I think told everyone that he trusted Snape, we were seeing books from Harry POV and there were hardly any situations where Dumbledore had to publicly defend Snape, but I think he did whenever somebody asked.

‘I trust Severus Snape,’ said Dumbledore simply. I forgot – another old man’s mistake – that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father – I was wrong.’

Professor … how can you be sure Snape’s on our side?’
Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, ‘I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely.’

Quote from Dust Collector on June 21, 2024, 11:42 pm

Quote from Naaga on June 18, 2024, 12:48 pm

Quote from The Gestalt Prince on January 2, 2024, 1:30 am

33. Do you think Dumbledore favored Snape?

Well, let's start analysing it.

Snape definitely wasn't favoured in Marauders era. He got injustice when he was a victim in the "Prank" where his attempted murderer got away with it.

Snape and Dumbledore didn't hold each other in high regard in their meeting in the first war. Snape thought of Dumbledore being capable of murder and his first words were "Please don't kill me" when he went to Dumbledore with his request. Dumbledore was also disgusted with Snape and he behaved harshly towards him.

Relations possibly improved after Snape's turning towards light. Dumbledore consoled Snape after Potters' demise and gave Snape reason to live.

Dumbledore defended Snape in Death Eater trials and said that Severus Snape rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort’s downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am. So by this point Dumbledore had a good opinion of Snape.

As a Professor is where Snape really got favoured. He got away his bullying of his students particularly Harry. Dumbledore never interfered in Snape's affairs as a teacher including all the detentions he assigned to Harry. Snape also had great deal of autonomy both as a Professor and as a spy. He got away with cancelling Harry's Occulomency lessons.

Dumbledore also defended Snape to everyone and Snape having his trust meant Snape was trusted nearly blindly by most of the Order before he killed Dumbledore.

Dumbledore showed great deal of trust in Snape in his role as spy and felt bad over Snape's death during his conversation with Harry in King's Cross.

Thus, Snape was overall favoured as a Professor and most of his adult life by Dumbledore. But it wasn't for free and Snape had most important role in the war, risking death everytime he went to Voldemort and Snape made a lot of sacrifices regarding Dumbledore and war, including his vows for the greater good of Dumbledore's orders.

While I mostly agree with this, was he really favoured as a professor? It seems to me that Dumbledore never really interfered with anyone's teaching methods/detentions, no matter how in/appropriate those were. I feel like Severus was simply treated like the rest of the staff. (That said, good point about the Occlumency. It is my extremely personal opinion, but I feel like Severus cancelling it reminded Dumbledore that he was a person with his own set of issues, not just a tool to be used.)

Also, I'm not sure how much did Dumbledore defend Severus with the exception of the trial. It's been a while since I've re-read the books, so it's entirely possible I'm wrong, but to me it seemed that the other professors started to trust Severus simply because Dumbledore hired him and didn't mind having him around. After all, Minerva's quote "Snape... we all wondered... but he trusted... always... " makes it sound like there has always been some doubt.

I agree that Dumbledore was pretty much non interfering with business of the other teachers, like many of shenanigans of Lockhart and Hagrid.

I think Dumbledore by this point had a good grip of character of Snape, allowing autonomy is trusting his judgement. Dumbledore I think told everyone that he trusted Snape, we were seeing books from Harry POV and there were hardly any situations where Dumbledore had to publicly defend Snape, but I think he did whenever somebody asked.

‘I trust Severus Snape,’ said Dumbledore simply. I forgot – another old man’s mistake – that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father – I was wrong.’

Professor … how can you be sure Snape’s on our side?’
Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, ‘I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely.’

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#249 · June 22, 2024, 10:10 pm

Quote from Dust Collector on June 22, 2024, 10:10 pm

Quote from Naaga on June 22, 2024, 3:36 am

Quote from Dust Collector on June 21, 2024, 11:42 pm

Quote from Naaga on June 18, 2024, 12:48 pm

Quote from The Gestalt Prince on January 2, 2024, 1:30 am

33. Do you think Dumbledore favored Snape?

Well, let's start analysing it.

Snape definitely wasn't favoured in Marauders era. He got injustice when he was a victim in the "Prank" where his attempted murderer got away with it.

Snape and Dumbledore didn't hold each other in high regard in their meeting in the first war. Snape thought of Dumbledore being capable of murder and his first words were "Please don't kill me" when he went to Dumbledore with his request. Dumbledore was also disgusted with Snape and he behaved harshly towards him.

Relations possibly improved after Snape's turning towards light. Dumbledore consoled Snape after Potters' demise and gave Snape reason to live.

Dumbledore defended Snape in Death Eater trials and said that Severus Snape rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort’s downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am. So by this point Dumbledore had a good opinion of Snape.

As a Professor is where Snape really got favoured. He got away his bullying of his students particularly Harry. Dumbledore never interfered in Snape's affairs as a teacher including all the detentions he assigned to Harry. Snape also had great deal of autonomy both as a Professor and as a spy. He got away with cancelling Harry's Occulomency lessons.

Dumbledore also defended Snape to everyone and Snape having his trust meant Snape was trusted nearly blindly by most of the Order before he killed Dumbledore.

Dumbledore showed great deal of trust in Snape in his role as spy and felt bad over Snape's death during his conversation with Harry in King's Cross.

Thus, Snape was overall favoured as a Professor and most of his adult life by Dumbledore. But it wasn't for free and Snape had most important role in the war, risking death everytime he went to Voldemort and Snape made a lot of sacrifices regarding Dumbledore and war, including his vows for the greater good of Dumbledore's orders.

While I mostly agree with this, was he really favoured as a professor? It seems to me that Dumbledore never really interfered with anyone's teaching methods/detentions, no matter how in/appropriate those were. I feel like Severus was simply treated like the rest of the staff. (That said, good point about the Occlumency. It is my extremely personal opinion, but I feel like Severus cancelling it reminded Dumbledore that he was a person with his own set of issues, not just a tool to be used.)

Also, I'm not sure how much did Dumbledore defend Severus with the exception of the trial. It's been a while since I've re-read the books, so it's entirely possible I'm wrong, but to me it seemed that the other professors started to trust Severus simply because Dumbledore hired him and didn't mind having him around. After all, Minerva's quote "Snape... we all wondered... but he trusted... always... " makes it sound like there has always been some doubt.

I agree that Dumbledore was pretty much non interfering with business of the other teachers, like many of shenanigans of Lockhart and Hagrid.

I think Dumbledore by this point had a good grip of character of Snape, allowing autonomy is trusting his judgement. Dumbledore I think told everyone that he trusted Snape, we were seeing books from Harry POV and there were hardly any situations where Dumbledore had to publicly defend Snape, but I think he did whenever somebody asked.

‘I trust Severus Snape,’ said Dumbledore simply. I forgot – another old man’s mistake – that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father – I was wrong.’

Professor … how can you be sure Snape’s on our side?’
Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, ‘I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely.’

I can imagine Dumbledore told the staff that he trusts Severus, nothing more, nothing less, letting them draw their own conclusions without specifically defending him. Them (as in, Severus and the other professors) working together for years could've been what solidified the trust, though some questions remained.

I think Dumbledore trusted Severus the way one trusts a tool one had their hand in honing.

(Also, I take everything he told Harry with a handful of salt. After all, Harry was a tool as well. A beloved tool, yes, but a tool nonetheless.)

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33. Do you think Dumbledore favored Snape?

Well, let's start analysing it.

Snape definitely wasn't favoured in Marauders era. He got injustice when he was a victim in the "Prank" where his attempted murderer got away with it.

Snape and Dumbledore didn't hold each other in high regard in their meeting in the first war. Snape thought of Dumbledore being capable of murder and his first words were "Please don't kill me" when he went to Dumbledore with his request. Dumbledore was also disgusted with Snape and he behaved harshly towards him.

Relations possibly improved after Snape's turning towards light. Dumbledore consoled Snape after Potters' demise and gave Snape reason to live.

Dumbledore defended Snape in Death Eater trials and said that Severus Snape rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort’s downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am. So by this point Dumbledore had a good opinion of Snape.

As a Professor is where Snape really got favoured. He got away his bullying of his students particularly Harry. Dumbledore never interfered in Snape's affairs as a teacher including all the detentions he assigned to Harry. Snape also had great deal of autonomy both as a Professor and as a spy. He got away with cancelling Harry's Occulomency lessons.

Dumbledore also defended Snape to everyone and Snape having his trust meant Snape was trusted nearly blindly by most of the Order before he killed Dumbledore.

Dumbledore showed great deal of trust in Snape in his role as spy and felt bad over Snape's death during his conversation with Harry in King's Cross.

Thus, Snape was overall favoured as a Professor and most of his adult life by Dumbledore. But it wasn't for free and Snape had most important role in the war, risking death everytime he went to Voldemort and Snape made a lot of sacrifices regarding Dumbledore and war, including his vows for the greater good of Dumbledore's orders.

While I mostly agree with this, was he really favoured as a professor? It seems to me that Dumbledore never really interfered with anyone's teaching methods/detentions, no matter how in/appropriate those were. I feel like Severus was simply treated like the rest of the staff. (That said, good point about the Occlumency. It is my extremely personal opinion, but I feel like Severus cancelling it reminded Dumbledore that he was a person with his own set of issues, not just a tool to be used.)

Also, I'm not sure how much did Dumbledore defend Severus with the exception of the trial. It's been a while since I've re-read the books, so it's entirely possible I'm wrong, but to me it seemed that the other professors started to trust Severus simply because Dumbledore hired him and didn't mind having him around. After all, Minerva's quote "Snape... we all wondered... but he trusted... always... " makes it sound like there has always been some doubt.

I agree that Dumbledore was pretty much non interfering with business of the other teachers, like many of shenanigans of Lockhart and Hagrid.

I think Dumbledore by this point had a good grip of character of Snape, allowing autonomy is trusting his judgement. Dumbledore I think told everyone that he trusted Snape, we were seeing books from Harry POV and there were hardly any situations where Dumbledore had to publicly defend Snape, but I think he did whenever somebody asked.

‘I trust Severus Snape,’ said Dumbledore simply. I forgot – another old man’s mistake – that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father – I was wrong.’

Professor … how can you be sure Snape’s on our side?’
Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, ‘I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely.’

I can imagine Dumbledore told the staff that he trusts Severus, nothing more, nothing less, letting them draw their own conclusions without specifically defending him. Them (as in, Severus and the other professors) working together for years could've been what solidified the trust, though some questions remained.

I think Dumbledore trusted Severus the way one trusts a tool one had their hand in honing.

(Also, I take everything he told Harry with a handful of salt. After all, Harry was a tool as well. A beloved tool, yes, but a tool nonetheless.)

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