The Character of Lily Evans
Perhaps, but we're talking about teenagers. 1-2 years feels like a long time when you're that young, and we go through tremendous changes between the ages of 15-17. If we were talking about the contrast between 25-27 years old, that would be different, but we're not. It's just not accurate (or fair) to treat it the same way.
Of course, there were other, major factors going on at that time as well. The perception of "good versus evil" was magnified, and the threat of Voldemort was becoming more and more of a reality. That had to feel especially threatening to Lily considering what she was, giving her a very strong (and legitimate) incentive to become attached to someone like James. Whatever flaws he might've had, he was unambiguously on the right side when it came to Voldemort.
There are a lot of things we can see in hindsight. We have all the information, and (I assume) we're all adults. None of that is the case with Lily. It's not fair to blame her for what she didn't know, which in reality, is damn near everything.
To put it another way, would you still fault her for getting together with James if Severus had become (and remained) a true Death Eater? What if he was planning to start killing Muggle-borns as soon as he left school? What if he'd targeted Lily herself?
That might sound absurd given what we know about Severus as an adult, but Lily never had that information. All she knew was that he was going down a very dark path, one that (among other things) was a direct threat to her. So yes, maybe she did minimize James's bullying, but look at what she had to compare it to. As far as she knew, Severus was hellbent on joining a cult full of supremacists who literally wanted to kill (or at least oppress) people like her. Given that context, can you see why a bit of bullying might've seemed like less of a big deal?
Personally, I think the fact that James had to hide his bullying speaks well of Lily. A lot of people in her position would think that Severus deserved it.
Disclaimer: I'm not trying to minimize what Severus went through. I know it was awful, and of course, it was undeserved. But again, Lily never got to see all the things that we can see. As far as she knew, Severus was increasingly dangerous, and James had gotten his shit together/was clearly on the right side.
In conclusion, I don't think she was wrong for dating him. She owed Severus nothing at that point, which is solidified by the fact that he did in fact become a Death Eater. That's a much bigger betrayal, creating a double standard that has never made sense to me. I can't see how anyone can blame her for dating his former bully, while excusing his decision to align himself with an entire group of people who would've killed her given the chance.
One of those people actually did kill her, so yeah… I've got no problem letting her off the hook for questionable dating choices. 🙂
Personally, and I always mention this to people with the bizarre take of Snape being an "incel" (which I know this thread never implies, just figured I'd mention it), I always felt that he took far more issue with Lily's *choice* of partner rather than her not choosing him. He'd be heartbroken either way given his feelings, but I felt that had Lily, say, married a Ravenclaw nobody, I don't think he'd take it nearly as badly and eventually be able to properly move on. Possibly even treat a Harry expy with a different father much better than in canon.
There's a discontinued Snily fic, Tempus Vita, where Lily asks him why he wasn't able to treat Harry decently given he was Lily's son (it's a do-over fic). Snape immediately responds "How could I? He looks just like his father!"
Oh yeah, I totally understand why Severus would've taken it badly. All I'm saying is that his feelings (however justified) don't make her some heartless betrayer. Likewise, he didn't want to join Voldemort because was trying to hurt her, but she can't help taking it that way/seeing it as a threat.
Point is, they were both flawed human beings who made poor choices. Both were heavily influenced by "their side", and neither fully understood the other's reasons for feeling/reacting the way they did. Being so young, they also hadn't developed the communication skills that might've helped them find common ground/salvage their relationship. It's tragic, largely because mistreatment from either side was never a deliberate thing. It wasn't a relationship where one person is the abuser and the other a victim… they both hurt each other, most (if not all) of which was completely unintentional.
As far as Lily marrying someone else… yeah, I'd have to agree. I actually think Severus would've handled it better than James, who behaved much more like an incel than he ever did.
I agree that Severus won't have treated Harry with a different father as bad as canon Harry, I can see him acting indifferent to that child, neither caring nor bullying him.
Eh, I'm far from the biggest Lily anti, but I don't much care for her.
It wasn't her duty to be the friend Severus needed - the people who really failed Severus were his parents, Slughorn and Dumbledore - but maybe it's the duty of everybody of nine years and above (exempting the mentally disabled) to not be such a shit friend as she appears in her few scenes, and to bow out gracefully if they just can't get on with someone in a civilized fashion.
Interesting, but I don't think that Lily's friendship was any worse than others; as I have said before, she did maintain the friendship with Severus in spite of enormous peer pressure.
Fair, though in the scenes we have of them, she's almost always antagonistic toward him, and it feels to me like more salt in the wound.
Quote from Motanul Negru on April 13, 2023, 4:10 pmFair, though in the scenes we have of them, she's almost always antagonistic toward him, and it feels to me like more salt in the wound.
Yeah, all her interactions with Snape had her behaving somewhat antagonistic towards him. She blamed Snape whenever it suited her yet she was supposedly a good friend.
The problem with this assessment of Lily's character is that a.) It's based on very limited information, and b.) It ignores (or at least minimizes) the context of these memories. The latter is particularly important, because Snape clearly wasn't in a position to give a fair, balanced, or comprehensive look at their friendship. He communicated specific things for specific reasons, all of which are intended to make Harry understand why things went so wrong.
In other words, he had reason to show their lowest moments, especially later on when shit started to go sideways. He goes out of his way to highlight the problems, which is necessary for the point he's trying to make.
Fair enough, but that doesn't mean those problems dominated their relationship. It doesn't mean Lily was always (or even frequently) antagonistic toward him, and even in the examples we do see, I'd argue that she has legitimate (or at least understandable) reasons for acting the way she does. I'd also argue that Snape isn't blameless, especially in later scenes. What I see is two people with blind spots/lack of maturity failing to understand the other's perspective, not some sort of victim/villain scenario.
In any case, I think it's sad that we didn't get to see more of their friendship. While I do understand why Snape needed to highlight the bad stuff, I don't think that's representative of their friendship as a whole. On the contrary, the fact that they did manage to stay friends for as long as they did speaks volumes... that would've never been possible (especially in such a toxic environment) if they hadn't had a remarkably strong bond.
Thank you @thegestaltprince for making this detailed outline of key moments concerning Lily. She is also my favorite female character in the books. This is also very helpful for writing! <3
