The Character of Lily Evans
I re-read this and I'll say that Lily knew what was going on somewhat, she knew James was still hexing Snape and content to ignore it if James didn't hex Snape in front of her.
What makes you think that in context with the passage you quoted? I've reread it multiple times, and I don't see anything that impugns her.
Quote from Heatherlly on July 15, 2023, 3:42 amI re-read this and I'll say that Lily knew what was going on somewhat, she knew James was still hexing Snape and content to ignore it if James didn't hex Snape in front of her.
What makes you think that in context with the passage you quoted? I've reread it multiple times, and I don't see anything that impugns her.
She didn’t know too much about it, to tell you the truth,’ said Sirius.
This quote implies she did know something was going on and chose to ignore the situation. James didn't want to push her buttons by openly bullying Snape so their bullying took place mostly behind Lily's back. This was consistent with Lily's pattern of ignoring the flaws of people she likes, this pattern was seen in her previous friendship with Snape.
The quote may imply that she may have known something, but I don't see how that automatically means she chose to do nothing. Also, I think you have to keep in mind that there's a lot of understatement in common English phrases. People (at least in Britain) can often use the phrase 'too much' to mean 'nothing'. Like: 'I don't know too much about it' often means 'I know nothing about it.'
This quote implies she did know something was going on and chose to ignore the situation.
It would if you take the comment at face value, but you can't really do that with Sirius (or Remus) in this context. Both have a consistent habit of downplaying James's bad behavior and use vagueness as a defense mechanism rather than speaking in absolutes. They want to make James look good (or at least less bad)… that's far more important to them than telling Harry the unvarnished truth. You can see other examples of that throughout the books and even in this same passage. Look at the way Remus talks about Snape:
‘Well,’ said Lupin slowly, ‘Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James so you couldn’t really expect James to take that lying down, could you?’
Would you take that at face value? Would you read it and assume that Snape was at least partially responsible for James's bullying? Of course not. You wouldn't because you know Remus is an unreliable narrator, one with his own agenda.
She didn’t know too much about it, to tell you the truth,’ said Sirius.
This isn't a statement of fact. It's Sirius downplaying the severity of the situation, something he always does where James is concerned. He's not going to say that James lied to Lily or kept her totally in the dark. That would make James look bad, and we all know that's the last thing Sirius wants.
On the flipside…
Let's assume that Lily did know James was still bullying Snape. Let's assume she turned a blind eye to it, or hell, that she even thought it was justified to some degree. Granted, I personally believe this is out of character based on other scenes, but let's go with it.
If that had been the case, Sirius wouldn't have downplayed it. He would've done the opposite. Why? Because he looks for any damn excuse to justify James's bullying, to somehow prove that Snape deserved it. What better way to do that than say, "Hey, even your mom was okay with it. She might not have been directly involved, but she understood why James did it", etc.
If there'd been even a scintilla of truth to that, Sirius would've latched onto it and used it to strengthen his case. The fact that he didn't speaks volumes… he might downplay or exaggerate as it suits his agenda, but he can't bring himself to outright lie.
Quote from Heatherlly on July 15, 2023, 4:47 amThis quote implies she did know something was going on and chose to ignore the situation.
It would if you take the comment at face value, but you can't really do that with Sirius (or Remus) in this context. Both have a consistent habit of downplaying James's bad behavior and use vagueness as a defense mechanism rather than speaking in absolutes. They want to make James look good (or at least less bad)… that's far more important to them than telling Harry the unvarnished truth. You can see other examples of that throughout the books and even in this same passage. Look at the way Remus talks about Snape:
‘Well,’ said Lupin slowly, ‘Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James so you couldn’t really expect James to take that lying down, could you?’
Would you take that at face value? Would you read it and assume that Snape was at least partially responsible for James's bullying? Of course not. You wouldn't because you know Remus is an unreliable narrator, one with his own agenda.
She didn’t know too much about it, to tell you the truth,’ said Sirius.
This isn't a statement of fact. It's Sirius downplaying the severity of the situation, something he always does where James is concerned. He's not going to say that James lied to Lily or kept her totally in the dark. That would make James look bad, and we all know that's the last thing Sirius wants.
On the flipside…
Let's assume that Lily did know James was still bullying Snape. Let's assume she turned a blind eye to it, or hell, that she even thought it was justified to some degree. Granted, I personally believe this is out of character based on other scenes, but let's go with it.
If that had been the case, Sirius wouldn't have downplayed it. He would've done the opposite. Why? Because he looks for any damn excuse to justify James's bullying, to somehow prove that Snape deserved it. What better way to do that than say, "Hey, even your mom was okay with it. She might not have been directly involved, but she understood why James did it", etc.
If there'd been even a scintilla of truth to that, Sirius would've latched onto it and used it to strengthen his case. The fact that he didn't speaks volumes… he might downplay or exaggerate as it suits his agenda, but he can't bring himself to outright lie.
Fair point. Sirius is the one who never lies though he doesn't shy away from downplaying the truth. Lupin was the one who outright lies.
My interpretation is based on Sirius not lying, he couldn't have lied to Lily though he could've framed events to her in a way that painted Snape was instigator of conflict with James and making it James' right to defend himself against Snape.
I pair Lily with Severus because it’s something that Severus wanted. The man never got a break in life and I don’t care what anybody says, what Severus wants, Severus gets. It’s fun to see how people interpret what little we know about Lily. These posts alone are fanfic fodder for me.
I think having Lily be portrayed so vaguely makes for some interesting fanfics. Writers fill in the blanks in what they perceive Lily to be and that’s the beauty of fanfiction. I would love if every fanfic with Severus as a protagonist had him with a happy ending but I enjoy exploring the character too and Lily has been a large part in his life. He wouldn’t be the Severus Snape we all know if Lily wasn’t apart of it in.
I like to think the love Severus had for Lily was so profound it would have been able to move even the coldest of hearts. (Except Voldemort and a few others in canon.) Within the Harry Potter books, the readers know more information than the characters and this is including Lily as well. If Lily knew all that we knew as readers, I think it would change a lot of her assumptions, regardless of what type of person Lily was. I think this because I have so much faith in how resolute Severus’ love is.
The entire series Severus was never believed in and he was thought upon most harshly. I obviously can’t rewrite the book to make him a less tragic character but as a reader I can give him the faith and trust that didn’t exist in the story. I trust on Severus’s love. If Lily was who he loved, who am I to challenge that?
I’ll always cheer him on and mentally support him in every fanfic regardless of the outcome.
Always.
Quote from JaySM on July 15, 2023, 6:40 pmI pair Lily with Severus because it’s something that Severus wanted. The man never got a break in life and I don’t care what anybody says, what Severus wants, Severus gets. It’s fun to see how people interpret what little we know about Lily. These posts alone are fanfic fodder for me.
I think having Lily be portrayed so vaguely makes for some interesting fanfics. Writers fill in the blanks in what they perceive Lily to be and that’s the beauty of fanfiction. I would love if every fanfic with Severus as a protagonist had him with a happy ending but I enjoy exploring the character too and Lily has been a large part in his life. He wouldn’t be the Severus Snape we all know if Lily wasn’t apart of it in.
I like to think the love Severus had for Lily was so profound it would have been able to move even the coldest of hearts. (Except Voldemort and a few others in canon.) Within the Harry Potter books, the readers know more information than the characters and this is including Lily as well. If Lily knew all that we knew as readers, I think it would change a lot of her assumptions, regardless of what type of person Lily was. I think this because I have so much faith in how resolute Severus’ love is.
The entire series Severus was never believed in and he was thought upon most harshly. I obviously can’t rewrite the book to make him a less tragic character but as a reader I can give him the faith and trust that didn’t exist in the story. I trust on Severus’s love. If Lily was who he loved, who am I to challenge that?
I’ll always cheer him on and mentally support him in every fanfic regardless of the outcome.
Always.
This is a beautiful take. Thank you for sharing! 💚💚💚
One thing I want to mention briefly is the difference between the book and movie versions of Lily; I've already listed book-Lily, so I'll just go over the latter.
Movie-Lily has minimal characterization; the only scenes we see of her are the glimpses of The Prince's Tale, the photographs of her and James, and the night she's murdered. Now, Movie-Lily has very few... actually, Movie-Lily has no visible character flaws, except for one (which I can only describe and not give a specific name to).
According to the films, Lily befriended Snape, Lily had a good meeting with James at the Sorting Ceremony, James bullied Snape, and then Lily dated and married James. She's also described as kind by Lupin and intelligent by Slughorn.
The above summary ignores very important elements from the books, such as the declining friendship between Lily and Snape and the full scene of SWM; regardless of what you believe, Lily had understandable and justifiable reasons for ending her friendship with Snape and understandable reasons for dating James, all of this laid out in the books. The movies lack all the motivations, and we're left with "Lily and Snape were friends, James bullied Snape, Lily dated James, Snape hated James".
On the surface level, the only level we really have in the movies, it looks like Lily started dating James despite knowing that James was bullying her friend, which is a really, really bad look for the character. Ironically, I actually believe that this makes movie-Lily a callous and unfaithful friend to Snape.
@thegestaltprince The movie didn't imply James was a bully to Severus; it was just poorly executed for those who only watched the movies.
From moviegoers understanding, Severus was a friendzoned man who was friends with a saintly Lily and hated James. They were never shown to have stopped their friendship, and from a movie perspective, a middle-aged Severus was obsessed with his friend Lily, hated James for marrying her, and bullied her son in jealousy.
Severus's motives and history were clearly shown in the books, and Lily's character had depth in the books, unlike some portrayals of her as saintly.
Quote from Krystal on August 23, 2023, 2:12 pm@thegestaltprince The movie didn't imply James was a bully to Severus; it was just poorly executed for those who only watched the movies.
From moviegoers understanding, Severus was a friendzoned man who was friends with a saintly Lily and hated James. They were never shown to have stopped their friendship, and from a movie perspective, a middle-aged Severus was obsessed with his friend Lily, hated James for marrying her, and bullied her son in jealousy.
The film version of Order of the Phoenix shows James bullying Snape during the Occlumency lessons, and James's friends and colleagues mention his more unruly behavior.
Based on how that love triangle is framed, Lily is shown to choose James without ending her friendship with Snape and without any evidence that James didn't bully him; perhaps, Lily even chose to date James while the latter was bullying Snape, which is the worst possible scenario and would damage not only Lily as a character, but also Snape.
