Poll: What Do You Think Was Snape's Original Patronus?
We know that Snape in canon had a 'doe' Patronus, but it was a manifestation of his love for Lily. So which one do you think was his original Patronus form and why do you think so?
Based on the books, I don't think Snape had truly been happy until he met Lily, and so when it comes to figuring out his original Patronus, things get dicey. The Patronus is the manifestation of one's joy, and so figuring out the source of joy to form the Patronus is important; could Snape derive joy from anyone/anything other than Lily, or at least enough to manifest a corporeal Patronus?
Personally, I don't think Snape could. He was a deeply unhappy man, and it's either a testament to his magical prowess or a miracle that he was even capable of producing one at a point in time where the love of his life was dead, his mentor asked him to kill him, and that the son of the love of his life was supposed to die.
For that reason, I'm going to say that Lily's doe is Snape's original Patronus.
My vote is for a Raven because it fits him by his nature.
A raven patronus is given to those who find solace at night and are always curious about the world and everything in it. Ravens aren’t as social as crows and are typically alone inventing clever and cunning ways to get what they want. A person with a raven patronus is most likely someone who enjoys their alone time and love to learn. They most likely are closed off with their emotions and elusive at times.
But I also agree with @thegestaltprince that Snape with his traumatic childhood and limited source of happiness had doe patronus because if a patronus is manifestation of a person's joy, it was Lily for Snape and thus her doe was as much a representation of happiness as much as his love for her. I think in a better world where Snape either had a good childhood or moves on from his traumas, his patronus could be a Raven.
Agreed. Based on canon, it's clear that the doe was his only/original Patronus. I voted for that due to how the question was phrased, though it's fun to imagine what his Patronus could've been under different circumstances.
In my most recent completed story, his Patronus became a panther:
Black Panther symbolizes courage, valor, beauty, grace, challenge, feminine power, and rites of passage. Black Panther is a courageous guardian, blessed with ancient maternal lunar power, who is drawn towards solitary people.
This made sense within the context of that story. It was a postwar survival fic where Severus is finally able to move on from Lily after he fulfilled his promise/put his demons to rest. There are also other influencing factors, such as Hermione saving him and the two of them helping each other through the healing process.
Of course, other authors choose different Patronuses for a variety of reasons, almost all of which I find interesting/valid. Severus is such a complex character that we have room to be creative in this respect… it really is amazing to see what people come up with. 💚
Another question for you all, do you think that Snape had a different patronus form which later became 'doe' similar to the case of Tonks or did he cast 'doe' patronus from the get-go.
Raven.
It's black. Like Severus' robes. That's my reason.
Actually, I have just looked up ravens in my bird encyclopedia, and I see that they 'do not usually associate in large flocks' (Alderton, D., 2021). They can also cover long distances effortlessly when searching for food, which suggests a high level of stamina. (I've just now scrolled up and read the description posted by Krystal, which follows this.)
Quote from Krystal on February 14, 2023, 3:24 amAnother question for you all, do you think that Snape had a different patronus form which later became 'doe' similar to the case of Tonks or did he cast 'doe' patronus from the get-go.
It was always the doe, at least in canon. That's the only explanation that makes sense, which @thegestaltprince lays out very well in the second post. Lily was the primary, undisputed source of his love/brief moments of happiness. Unless we assume that a.) he was able to cast a Patronus before he was nine years old (virtually impossible), and b.) he had truly happy memories from another source during that time (highly unlikely), there's just no basis for it.
@heatherlly, I believe it too and I headcanon that he learned to cast the doe patronus after the Lily's death
Personally I headcanon that Severus' and Lily's Patronus being the exact same is because they're both fueling it with the *exact same memory*. I do not have a headcanon for the exact memory beyond it being something they both did and loved to do while they were younger and remained best friends, and a memory they treasure out of love (not necessarily romantic) for each other.
I always considered the doe's similarity to James' stag to be a coincidence. Because if we are to believe that Lily's Patronus changed because of James, then why did Snape's change too? I can't see him love the idea of James being together with Lily. Plus, if this is how Patronus guardians work (i.e. they change to other people's when you love them romantically), then why is Snape's not a stag?
edit: Also I want to add, unrelated to the form of Snape's Patronus; canon tells us that the Patronus is fueled by joy. I don't think this is true, but rather I think it's fueled by love. Here is my reasoning:
* Harry was not able to properly fuel a Patronus with his memory of broom riding for the first time. I am convinced that Harry felt utter joy at this moment, yet it utterly failed.
* Harry did, on the other hand, manage to fuel his Patronus because of a phantom memory of his parents. From the way he talked about it, I got the impression that the memory was more bittersweet than joyful (given that they're dead), but the memory is most certainly featuring very strong love.
* Snape's Patronus (the one other case we can actually infer memory from) is a similar case to Harry's.
* "Emotional upheaveal" can change a Patronus, this is a fact. What I think simply happens is that a person is substituting a memory of love for one person with that of another.
* The Patronus is said to be incredibly difficult to cast. Yet Harry manages to teach a bunch of Hogwarts students how to cast it without much trouble at all. So this isn't just "Harry is special and can cast it at 3rd year" since a lot of other students can too.
* Hermione, famously able to learn basically everything she sets her task to academically, has serious trouble casting it. I think she is getting stuck up on finding a memory of joy, and being the rational person she is, is able to figure out the perfect joyful memory, only for it not to work because what she actually needs is a memory of love.
@fredriq I love this analysis, and I think you're spot on with most of your points. I especially like how you highlighted the contradiction between "a Patronus is notoriously hard to cast" and Harry being able to learn it/teach it to others with relative ease. This is something that frustrates me, not just with Patronuses, but also with other types of magic throughout the series. There are times when it seems too easy, especially for inexperienced students.
Another example of this is the Marauders teaching themselves how to become Animagi. If it really was that easy, enough for three students to do it without outside assistance, why doesn't it happen more often?
Anyway, back to your post…
I don't think that the stag and doe were a coincidence, though I certainly don't believe it means that James and Lily were soulmates. To me, this is made clear by the way male and female deer interact with each other, the characteristics they share, but more importantly, the characteristics they don't share.
On the surface, there are similarities, just as there are with James and Lily. Both are attractive and graceful, intelligent and strong, have a playful side, etc. Where they differ is in their relationships, most notably in the mating process. Stags are bold, aggressive, determined to eliminate potential rivals so they can get what they want. Ultimately, they overpower the doe, and while she's not necessarily unwilling, no one could say that she's an equal participant.
I don't know about you, but I can't help seeing parallels with James. He was absolutely the aggressor in their relationship, spent years wearing her down until she finally gave in. It's also obvious (at least to me) that part of his aggression toward Severus had more to do with her than house rivalries. Severus was the competition, plain and simple… James had every reason (at least in his mind) to stir up trouble/put himself between them.
This begs the question: would Lily have ended up with James if he hadn't forced the issue? I don't think so, just as I don't think the doe would mate with the stag if he didn't pursue her so relentlessly.
That's the key difference between James's and Severus's love, both reflected in their Patronuses. James's love, while it might have been sincere, comes with a side of dominance. He's represented by an animal that, by its very nature, puts its own needs first and takes what it wants. By contrast, Severus's Patronus shows no trace of a selfish nature or possessiveness. It's entirely focused on (and inspired by) Lily rather than himself, demonstrating a love that is unconditional.
Beyond that…
While stags are bold, passionate, and can be singularly focused, that's a fleeting thing. Male and female deer do not mate with each other for life or even extended periods of time. If you believe in the parallels (as I do), this speaks for itself. James and Lily might have been drawn to each other, at least for a while, but (had they survived) it's hard to imagine them working out in the long term.
