What's Wrong with the Marauders?
In another post, I noticed some traits associated with sociopathy in Snape, but was unsure if it qualified as sociopathy. However, after receiving a response on why Snape is most likely not a sociopath, and how Sirius is closer to being a sociopath, I started wondering if Sirius actually is a sociopath. And, if that's the case, I started wondering if he's alone (not if the other Marauders are also sociopaths, just in general if they each relate to a particular disorder or behaviors associated to said disorders).
This is a link from the other post on sociopathy as a point of reference. I'm going to list the four Marauders down below, along with traits from said list that I believe fits them. There are 14 main points, so I'll add a number next to each name. And if there's other behaviors that anyone notices that may relate to something else, feel free to post them.
Sirius: I'm starting with him as he was the one mentioned. I'm giving him a 10 for now.
- Disregard for right and wrong (to a degree, via bullying)
- Being callous, cynical and disrespectful of others (selective, but it's mostly disrespect)
- Recurring problems with the law, including criminal behavior (Hogwarts, but also with Muggle police while evading Death Eaters)
- Repeatedly violating the rights of others through intimidation and dishonesty (mostly intimidation via bullying)
- Impulsiveness or failure to plan ahead (the Werewolf Incident, chasing after Peter to kill him, rushing to the Ministry to save Harry)
- Hostility, significant irritability, agitation, aggression or violence (with Snape and Kreacher)
- Lack of empathy for others and lack of remorse about harming others (with Snape, sort of)
- Unnecessary risk-taking or dangerous behavior with no regard for the safety of self or others (see the above examples)
- Poor or abusive relationships (not only as the recipient due to his parents, but also how he treats Kreacher and takes advantage of Remus's condition to try to "scare" Snape)
- Failure to consider the negative consequences of behavior or learn from them (to a degree, with the above incidents)
James: He's up next. I can see him reaching a 13.
- Disregard for right and wrong (bullying)
- Persistent lying or deceit to exploit others (heavily implied by bullying Snape behind Lily's back)
- Using charm or wit to manipulate others for personal gain or personal pleasure (particularly charismatic)
- Arrogance, a sense of superiority and being extremely opinionated (100% James)
- Recurring problems with the law, including criminal behavior (see the above scenarios with Sirius)
- Repeatedly violating the rights of others through intimidation and dishonesty (bullying, heavily implied to have deceived Lily about stopping his behavior)
- Impulsiveness or failure to plan ahead (certain scenarios, such as charging Voldemort without a wand, which was an act of pure instinct)
- Hostility, significant irritability, agitation, aggression or violence (SWM)
- Lack of empathy for others and lack of remorse about harming others (depends how you read the Werewolf Incident)
- Unnecessary risk-taking or dangerous behavior with no regard for the safety of self or others (see his antics with Sirius, minus the Werewolf Incident)
- Poor or abusive relationships (low opinion of Peter, questionable view of Remus)
- Failure to consider the negative consequences of behavior or learn from them (to an extent)
- Being consistently irresponsible and repeatedly failing to fulfill work or financial obligations (he was jobless and living off his wealth; he fought for the Order, so that might qualify as a job if a paycheck was involved)
Remus: here for the sake of including all four. A 1, at worst.
- Persistent lying or deceit to exploit others (fairly deceitful, though maybe not for exploitation)
Peter: another one to include the full set of Marauders. Possibly a 5.
- Disregard for right and wrong (believable)
- Persistent lying or deceit to exploit others (Peter)
- Repeatedly violating the rights of others through intimidation and dishonesty (bullying)
- Lack of empathy for others and lack of remorse about harming others (bullying, murders 12 Muggles and frames Sirius)
- Poor or abusive relationships (recipient of low opinion from James and Sirius)
This is a rough starting point and doesn't consider anything outside of sociopathy, so if there's anything else to mention, feel free
My apologies. I meant to comment when you posted this, but I got busy with the holidays.
I was also thinking about James in the other thread, and honestly, I'm not surprised that he scored higher than Sirius. My take is that they brought out the best and worst in each other, though James was much more of a ringleader/instigator. I think Sirius went out of his way to impress him, up to and including (possibly) the werewolf incident. With Sirius, there's always an undercurrent of "proving himself" – James is just James with zero apologies (unless it benefits him to pretend to be contrite).
Great analysis, as usual! I wonder where Dumbledore would score on the sociopathy scale. lol
On the Marauders' scores: the relationship between James and Sirius does strike me as manipulative on James's part
On Dumbledore: I suppose I could see how he lines up. So far, I have 6 at most, but I might be forgetting some Dumbledore moments in the books:
- Persistent lying or deceit to exploit others (Dumbledore)
- Using charm or wit to manipulate others for personal gain or personal pleasure (technically-speaking)
- Recurring problems with the law, including criminal behavior (technically true due to Remus's attendance)
- Unnecessary risk-taking or dangerous behavior with no regard for the safety of self or others (there's a few instances of him doing this)
- Poor or abusive relationships (his brother, because Ariana)
- Being consistently irresponsible and repeatedly failing to fulfill work or financial obligations
Thinking more about the Marauders, I decided to put them through the "dark triad" ringer to see how much they align with sociopathy/psychopathy, narcissism, and Machiavellianism. For now, I'll do the narcissism.
For this, there are two different point sections I'm using for them. The first section is Symptoms (obviously, which has 13 total points), and the second is Critical Reaction (or their reaction to criticism, which has 8 total points). Let's begin.
Sirius
- Symptoms: for now, I can see Sirius getting 4 points here:
- Believe they are superior to others and can only spend time with or be understood by equally special people. (he sees James as his best friend and partner)
- Be critical of and look down on people they feel are not important. (Kreacher, Snape)
- Have an inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others. (Kreacher, Snape)
- Behave in an arrogant way, brag a lot and come across as conceited. (James rubbed off on him a bit)
- Critical Reaction: I can only really see 2 points for this:
- Have difficulty managing their emotions and behavior. (biggest example being the Werewolf Incident)
- Have secret feelings of insecurity, shame, humiliation and fear of being exposed as a failure. (underlying issue when it comes to being Harry's godfather)
James:... oh boy....
- Symptoms: well... yep.... 13
- Have an unreasonably high sense of self-importance and require constant, excessive admiration. (which he receives... constantly)
- Feel that they deserve privileges and special treatment. (to be fair, he's straight-up given special treatment)
- Expect to be recognized as superior even without achievements. (James 100)
- Make achievements and talents seem bigger than they are. (Quidditch)
- Be preoccupied with fantasies about success, power, brilliance, beauty or the perfect mate. (he already has most of it; he just needs Lily to complete the collection)
- Believe they are superior to others and can only spend time with or be understood by equally special people. (he only really respects Sirius when he's at school)
- Be critical of and look down on people they feel are not important. (the way he speaks to Peter in SWM highlights this)
- Expect special favors and expect other people to do what they want without questioning them. (asking Lily out so that he can stop bullying Snivellus, which is a lie given what happens later on in life)
- Take advantage of others to get what they want. (uses Remus's condition as an excuse to sneak out once a month)
- Have an inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others. (is a bully)
- Be envious of others and believe others envy them. (envying Snape's friendship with Lily)
- Behave in an arrogant way, brag a lot and come across as conceited. (James 100)
- Insist on having the best of everything — for instance, the best car or office. (he probably already has it, given how rich is well cared for he is, minus the office part)
- Critical Reaction: he manages to get a 4 on this
- Become impatient or angry when they don't receive special recognition or treatment. (getting rejected by Lily in SWM, uses Snivellus as a punching bag)
- Have major problems interacting with others and easily feel slighted. (Snape makes a slight disapproving sound, and James escalates)
- React with rage or contempt and try to belittle other people to make themselves appear superior. (bullying, specifically SWM)
- Have difficulty managing their emotions and behavior. (see other points)
Remus: just for the sake of including him
- Symptoms: easily a 0
- Critical Reaction: I mean, he got a 0 in the first bit. Can't really have a reaction to nothing
Peter
- Symptoms: it's subtle, but I can see him hitting a 3
- Take advantage of others to get what they want. (Peter 100)
- Have an inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others. (he's pretty selfish)
- Be envious of others and believe others envy them. (only the first part)
- Critical Reaction: a 2 at most
- Withdraw from or avoid situations in which they might fail. (cowardice)
- Have secret feelings of insecurity, shame, humiliation and fear of being exposed as a failure. (kinda)
Feel free to let me know if there's anything that doesn't quite line up to your view of this assessment
That all lines up perfectly for me. Damn… James is a piece of work, isn't he?
If you feel like it at any point, I'd love to see similar analysis on other characters. Dumbledore comes to mind, along with Lily, the trio, and possibly Hagrid.
I've decided to do a quick one for Lily, but just on first impressions (this sentence is being written before the evaluation), I don't think she'll score high on either sociopathy or narcissism.
Sociopathy: she scores a 3 if I really stretch it
- Being callous, cynical and disrespectful of others (reaction to name-calling)
- Arrogance, a sense of superiority and being extremely opinionated (very select topics, but very much when it comes to Severus's housemates, regardless of right or wrong)
- Lack of empathy for others and lack of remorse about harming others (selective, cuts ties with Severus while he's surrounded by enemies because he called her a mudblood)
Narcissism
- Symptoms: a 1, at most. Honestly surprising.
- Have an inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others (develops over time with her relationship with Severus)
- Critical Reaction: a 2, at most.
- Have major problems interacting with others and easily feel slighted (every time she's called a mean name)
- Have secret feelings of insecurity, shame, humiliation and fear of being exposed as a failure (her first wand wood is willow, which is known to have users with hidden insecurities; also, she's Muggle-born in a wizarding world)
"What's Wrong with the Marauders?"
Everything.
Quote from Severus Snape on April 1, 2023, 3:26 am"What's Wrong with the Marauders?"
Everything.
I wholly agree
Quote from Naaga on April 1, 2023, 3:30 am
I wholly agree
Very well, I will take back what I said about despising you. I am rarely wrong, but in this case, I will admit that I judged you too swiftly and too harshly.
