Quote from Krystal on February 25, 2023, 1:21 pm

One thing that comes to my mind is the perception of Snaters that Snape was a bully as a teenager during his Hogwarts years where he bullied muggleborn students and Lupin.

Another is that he was a bad teacher. While his teaching methods were questionable, he was able to produce results. His class was noticed to be advanced according to the Umbridge, he was able to produce 10 Os from Harry's class of about 26-28 students. Huge point in Snape's favour is Hermione struggling in the potions in Slughorn's classes but she obtained top marks in Snape's classes. Even Harry felt confident that he could get higher grades in Snape's classes if he applied himself.

Quote from Heatherlly on February 25, 2023, 1:33 pm

Those are both great ones, especially the second as it seems to be really widespread. I may end up splitting this into several metas, one being a deep dive into Snape as a teacher.

Quote from Krystal on February 25, 2023, 1:52 pm

@heatherlly, especially second one seems quite popular among the fandom even the non-Snaters. If you check out the r/HPfanfiction on reddit which is a cesspit of Snaters, you may find constant arguments where they discuss that Snape was destroying the future of wizarding world with his teaching by allowing only O graders in his NEWT classes.

The following para is from the famous fanfic called the 'Harry Potter and the Prince of Slytherin' which I believe does perfectly explain this policy of Snape.

 

Minutes later, Harry was seriously questioning whether he was lucky at all given the look that Snape was giving them both as Flint stammered out his request to be allowed into Sixth Year Potions despite (a) being a Seventh Year and (b) only scoring an EE on the Potions OWL exam he retook the previous summer. Snape said nothing at first, and the silence grew so oppressive that Harry thought he could hear Marcus's pounding heart. Finally, the man spoke.

"Mr. Flint, do you wish to pursue a Mastery in Potions?"

"Um, no sir."

"Do you wish to work in the experimental potions department at St. Mungo's?"

"No, sir," said Flint who was growing confused.

"Is it your goal to become an Unspeakable?"

"Sir, I just want to be eligible for the Auror Academy."

"I see. Then, your request is denied."

Flint looked stricken at that, while Harry finally spoke out. "Professor, I know you have a strict policy, but Mr. Flint jumped from a Poor to an Exceeds Expectations purely through just a few months of self-study. Surely that shows the depth of his commitment."

"I am not interested in commitment out of my Sixth and Seventh Year Potions students, Mr. Potter. I am interested in academic brilliance. Mr. Flint will not be permitted to enter my NEWTS Potion class... because doing so is completely unnecessary for his stated career goals."

"Sir?" asked Harry.

"Honestly, Potter," Snape drawled, "use that brain that you somehow acquired despite sharing genetic material with your father and brother! Since I instituted a policy of only allowing Outstanding students to proceed past Fifth Year in my class, I have never had more than eight students in a given year graduate having completed the two-year NEWTs Potion curriculum. And yet, somehow, fifteen to twenty Hogwarts graduates pass the NEWT Potions exam every year. Now how would you explain this discrepancy?"

Harry blinked. "I would guess ... that the last two years of the Potions class aren't actually necessary to pass the NEWT exam?" he said uncertainly.

"Of course not!" the Professor snapped. "Do you really think the Headmaster – to say nothing of the Ministry – would tolerate a policy put in place by me that significantly reduced the number of applicants eligible to enter the Auror Academy or to apprentice at St. Mungo's? Especially if that policy blatantly favored Slytherins?

Harry blinked some more. Now that the man had mentioned it, it was rather surprising that his selectivity had been permitted by the Powers That Be for the better part of ten years.

Snape's mouth wrinkled under his nose in an expression of disdain. "Few things in this world annoy me as much as dunderheads who uncritically compare the most subtle science of potion-making ... to cooking. Unfortunately, the reason that comparison annoys me so much is because it is substantially correct. The essence of potion-making involves understanding what ingredients to use; how to properly chop, dice, crush or otherwise prepare the ingredients before adding them to the cauldron; and how long to let them brew and at what temperature. If you understand the fundamental techniques and can follow directions and above-all have sufficient patience and attention to detail, you can brew nearly any potion simply by following the directions, just as a reasonably intelligent Muggle can follow the recipes in a cookbook to prepare any dish. But, just because any imbecile can cook a grilled cheese sandwich doesn't mean he can just as easily prepare a Beef Wellington."

"Beef who?" asked a confused Marcus.

"Beef Wellington," said Harry. "It's a filet steak coated with pâté de foie gras and duxelles and then baked," at that point the boy noticed Snape staring at him with a slightly feral look, "inside a puff pastry and I'll shut up now."

"Please do," said the Potions Master. "My point, Mr. Flint, is that the there are no new techniques that are tested on the Potions NEWT that will be introduced in Years Six and Seven, which focus instead on advanced techniques offered as preparation for a future Potions apprenticeship. You already know every technical skill you need to pass the exam right now. The only difference between the OWL and NEWT exams lies in the increased number of potions you are expected to either brew from memory or via written instructions. That is why my practice from Day One is to write the brewing instructions on the blackboard and give little further direct instruction to the entire class – because that is how the OWL and NEWT practical exams are given. And while my students may whine endlessly about my teaching techniques, they have borne fruit in the form of a fifteen percent increase in the number of Hogwarts students who pass the Potions OWL compared to my predecessor, as well as a twenty percent increase in the number of students who eventually complete a Mastery."

He stood and opened the door for the two Slytherins, making it plain that it was time for them to depart. "In short, Mr. Flint, I recommend you hire a tutor and engage in vigorous self-study for the next nine months. That would be far more beneficial than sitting through a year of highly theoretical and advanced potions material which will not even appear on your NEWT exam. Now, if that is all, gentlemen, I bid you good day. I have the Gryffindor First Years in fifteen minutes, and I must prepare myself for the crushing wave of idiocy that draws nigh."

Quote from mmlf on February 27, 2023, 6:19 am

I have always assumed that Snape's parents are dead, so I would be interested in reading a deep dive on this one.

Quote from Heatherlly on February 27, 2023, 6:29 pm

@mmlf I might do a deep dive later on, but the overall point is that their deaths were never confirmed. We can assume that Eileen wasn't killed by the Dragon Pox epidemic (which is deus ex machina in and of itself), being as she was estranged from magical society. We also know that she was relatively young by magical standards (or even Muggle ones)… we can assume the same was true for Tobias.

The strongest arguments in defense of their early deaths is that a.) they're not around in the series, and b.) Severus has the house. Fair enough, though the first point is largely irrelevant. We see precious little of Severus outside of Hogwarts, so our knowledge of his personal life as an adult is minimal.

As to the second point…

While it's reasonable to assume that the house passed to him after their deaths, there could be a number of other explanations. One, which I posted in our first RR, is that Tobias came into a bit of money and they decided to move elsewhere. It could also be possible that Severus financed their move. He would've been making a decent salary once he started working at Hogwarts, and he certainly had motivation to want the house to himself.

That last point is the one that stands out to me, because I don't believe him staying there was a coincidence. He could've easily moved anywhere else as an adult, but he didn't. He made a point of returning to Spinner's End again and again, and I think we know why. For all the bad memories/shoddy state of the house, that area was also inextricably tied to Lily.

So yes, we can assume it was just a happy coincidence if we choose to. Parents die, he inherits the house, which just so happens to be where he chooses to live for other reasons. But those other reasons make it possible (perhaps even likely) that him obtaining the house was much more deliberate, something he actively pursued rather than it simply falling into his lap.

Example:

Severus finishes seventh year at Hogwarts, lives somewhere else during his brief time as a Death Eater. Assuming his parents were still alive at that point (and even if they weren't), why would he be motivated to go back to Spinner's End? He might be sad about his estrangement from Lily, but I don't think that would be enough to draw him back to a place that was otherwise miserable for him.

That being said, his finances would be limited/nonexistent, so I can't see him being able to afford his own place. He would've needed to live with roommates or perhaps someone who was able to provide accommodations (e.g. Lucius). Either way, it's safe to assume that his living situation was tied to other Death Eaters.

So what happens? He switches sides, Lily dies, Death Eaters are captured or scatter to the winds. Living situation? Gone. Love of his life? Dead, and he blames himself for her loss. At this point, he's got plenty of reason to go back to Spinner's End, both practically and emotionally. He also has the means to make it happen now that he's gainfully employed as a professor.

I like this theory. Not only does it make sense for him as a character/give him more agency, but it addresses a larger issue that drives me absolutely nuts. It's implausible that virtually all the Marauders era parents died when their kids were teenagers, especially when so many of them had nothing to do with the war/couldn't have contracted Dragon Pox. By not connecting Severus's ownership of the house with his parents' deaths, we can eliminate that restriction, opening up all sorts of possibilities.

Maybe they died later on. Maybe only one of them did, while the other survived. Maybe Eileen left Tobias, something she was finally able to do with Severus's financial assistance. Maybe they stayed together, he murdered her (or vice versa), and one of them wound up in prison. Hell, for all we know, one or even both of them could've outlived their son… the list goes on and on.

Having said that, I don't think there's anything wrong with the standard explanation (i.e. parents died when Severus was a teenager/he inherited the house). I've read many stories where it handled really well, and I've also included it in my own writing.

The problem is that it's so commonplace that people treat it as canon. They say that Severus's parents are dead as if it's a fact, when the truth is, we don't know that. We can't be sure when or how it happened, under what circumstances, or (crucially) whether it happened at all.

I think it's important to acknowledge that, especially for those of us who write fanfiction. Making assumptions/taking things at face value can be limiting, tto the point where we don't give ourselves the chance to explore other, equally valid possibilities.

ETA: Nevermind, I guess that was sort of a deep dive. 😂 I think I'll organize my thoughts and turn this into a meta… feel free to add any insights you guys might have!

Quote from Krystal on February 28, 2023, 5:07 am

@heatherlly, I agree that Snape's parents might not have been dead, they are usually dead in the fics for the plot convenience.

This actually reminds me that there are many fanon facts which are being taken as canon despite the lack of the evidence and I put my own piece of mind regarding them.

• Prefect Lily : Most common fanon despite there not having any canon evidence that describes her as a prefect. In Harry's POV in SWM, he described Lupin having the perfect batch yet didn't comment upon Lily having a batch. No text in canon described her as such. Her not being a prefect does explain some of her actions in SWM because she could've done more under the backing of actual power.
• Drunkard Tobias Snape : Quite surprising fact, there has not been any canon evidence in HP books and wizarding world website regarding him being a drunk. He is only described as not liking anything much and being physically abusive towards Severus with a belt. The above mentioned fanon is taken as default in almost all fics that it was mind boggling for me to find no evidence for him being an alcoholic.

There are many such fanons taken as canon so it would be better to make a seperate thread for discussing those facts.

Quote from FIQ on February 28, 2023, 6:51 am

Speaking of more minor misconceptions (such as prefect Lily), there's a couple of things many consider canon that isn't canon at all:

* Severus' secondary name is never actually revealed. Many assume he's named Severus Tobias Snape, but we don't know that.

* Snape is not (necessarily) Draco's godfather. We don't know that he isn't, but we don't know that he is either.

Quote from Krystal on February 28, 2023, 12:25 pm

@fredriq, on your the first point, I agree that there has not been any canon middle name for the Severus. The Tobias likely came from almost everyone having their father's name as their middle names unless explicitly mentioned middle names for characters like Remus John Lupin, Harry's kids, Tom Marvolo Riddle and others.

For your second point, I don't think Severus was Draco's Godfather. No canon text described him as such. The missed opportunity for such a claim was Narcissa's request to Snape where she could've claimed it if it was true. Instead she said that following :

‘I only meant … that nobody has yet succeeded … Severus … please … you are, you have always been, Draco’s favourite teacher … you are Lucius’s old friend … I beg you … you are the Dark Lord’s favourite, his most trusted advisor … will you speak to him, persuade him –?’

HBP : Chapter 2

She didn't call him Draco's godfather so I don't think he was the godfather but he was close with Draco. He favoured him, supported him and protected him whenever the opportunity came. Most likely considering Severus' blood status and economic condition, Lucius didn't make Severus Draco's godfather but that doesn't take away their closeness.

Quote from Heatherlly on February 28, 2023, 2:21 pm

@kris and @fredriq – those are some really great points. While I can usually separate canon from fanon, the lines can be blurry for me, too. One example is Lily the Prefect. While I knew that it wasn't explicitly stated in canon, I've gotten so used to it as a trope that I didn't realize there was actually evidence against it, as Krystal pointed out.

The same is true for Severus as Harry's godfather. Again, I know this wasn't specified in the books, but that Spinners End chapter directly refutes it. Narcissa is desperate in that scene, looking for every possible way to appeal to Severus on an emotional level. If he was Draco's godfather, that would've been the first thing she mentioned.

As for the middle name… I never assumed that was canonical, though I do understand why it's the default for many people. It would be just as plausible to choose a different name, however, not to mention kinder to Severus as a character. He's already saddled with his father's last name, a father who abused him and whom he clearly didn't like. The more I think about it, the more I prefer him having a middle name with magical origins (e.g. one of his Prince ancestors). In the end, he was much more wizard than Muggle.

Drunkard Tobias Snape : Quite surprising fact, there has not been any canon evidence in HP books and wizarding world website regarding him being a drunk. He is only described as not liking anything much and being physically abusive towards Severus with a belt. The above mentioned fanon is taken as default in almost all fics that it was mind boggling for me to find no evidence for him being an alcoholic.

No, it isn't directly stated in canon, though I think this is one of those cases where it's both fair (and probably accurate) to read between the lines. England at that time (60s-70s) was suffering a severe economic downturn, which hit the working class the hardest. Then just like now, substance abuse was rampant among those who were impoverished… men who abuse substances (especially alcohol) are also statistically more likely to abuse wives and children.

In other words, there's more evidence for Tobias being an alcoholic than against it. We also can't assume that JKR would've mentioned it in canon even if it was true. Addiction is a touchy subject, especially when writing children's books.