Quote from Naaga on July 18, 2023, 2:52 pm

Quote from Dark Angel on July 18, 2023, 2:18 pm

You know how during SWM, Severus cuts James' cheek? I would like to think that was a prototype of Sectumsempra and Severus later went on and perfected it by the time they got to 7th year.

Otherwise, why would Lupin know in the first place? Death Eaters wear masks, he couldn't have seen him cast it.

We can't definitely call SWM spell a proto-sectumsempra, it could've been a simple cutting curse for all we know. I believe he used Sectumsempra against Marauders, most likely in his 6th or 7th yr. His proficiency was noted to be profound for Lupin to call it his speciality. He couldn't have used it against him in DE days because he wasn't a known DE before trials. So only reasonable use was in his school days.

Quote from Dark Angel on July 18, 2023, 3:10 pm

Quote from Naaga on July 18, 2023, 2:52 pm

Quote from Dark Angel on July 18, 2023, 2:18 pm

You know how during SWM, Severus cuts James' cheek? I would like to think that was a prototype of Sectumsempra and Severus later went on and perfected it by the time they got to 7th year.

Otherwise, why would Lupin know in the first place? Death Eaters wear masks, he couldn't have seen him cast it.

We can't definitely call SWM spell a proto-sectumsempra, it could've been a simple cutting curse for all we know. I believe he used Sectumsempra against Marauders, most likely in his 6th or 7th yr. His proficiency was noted to be profound for Lupin to call it his speciality. He couldn't have used it against him in DE days because he wasn't a known DE before trials. So only reasonable use was in his school days.

I wasn't sure but it is just something of a headcanon. He can't have perfected the spell right away and I just like to think that back then he was still trying things out and that was the beginning of his future signature spell. By the time he wrote the "for enemies" in the notebook, he was finally satisfied with the spell.

Quote from Naaga on July 18, 2023, 3:17 pm

He could've practised on dummies and objects to perfect the spell and perhaps started using it against Marauders in retaliation.

Quote from JaySM on July 18, 2023, 4:16 pm

In my headcanon, the Marauders stole Severus’ potion book that held his spells which would explain why the book was placed with the other potion books in the first place. They probably left it for Slughorn to find and when he couldn’t decipher whose it was by name, he just added it to the pile he had. Marauders probably used the spells they learned from within it against Severus as well.  There was probably a reason why they would steal Severus’ property and I think it’s because Severus was getting more difficult to beat even with the four of them. The reason why it would be 6th year book and not the 5th year I think has to do with Severus. He probably studied ahead of the curriculum to challenge himself and that lead him to studying a year in advance. He was probably spellcrafting on the side when he wanted to make a difference in the odds against his bullies and made note of his progress in his potion textbook. I don’t have supporting evidence of this other than James using Levicorpus which I believe was a spell Severus created and Lupin saying that there were a few months in his fifth year where he couldn’t walk anywhere without being hoisted by his ankle. Lupin probably knew about certain spells being Severus’ while James and Sirius practiced it on each other but never actually read the book that held it which is why he had no idea who the half-blood Prince was. I could picture James and Sirius mocking the name half-blood prince with snide remarks but choosing to stick with their “Snivellous” and put Severus down a peg or two because he “so obviously” had too big of a head leading for their tactics to change and their pranks to be nasty and more demeaning in nature.

Quote from Dark Angel on July 19, 2023, 11:25 am

22. Discussion: What is your headcanon on Eileen's backstory? How did she come to marry Tobias?

Quote from Naaga on July 19, 2023, 1:01 pm

I'll try my attempt at Eileen's backstory and how come she came to marry Tobias Snape.

Our first mention of Eileen Prince came in Half-Blood Prince book.

‘Right!’ said Hermione, red patches blazing in her cheeks as she pulled a very old piece of newsprint out of her pocket and slammed it down on the table in front of Harry. ‘Look at that! Look at the picture!’

Harry picked up the crumbling piece of paper and stared at the moving photograph, yellowed with age; Ron leaned over for a look, too. The picture showed a skinny girl of around fifteen. She was not pretty; she looked simultaneously cross and sullen, with heavy brows and a long, pallid face. Underneath the photograph was the caption: Eileen Prince, Captain of the Hogwarts Gobstones Team.

‘So?’ said Harry, scanning the short news item to which the picture belonged; it was a rather dull story about inter-school competitions.

‘Her name was Eileen Prince. Prince, Harry.’

Eileen was a popular girl, taking part in inter-school Gobstones competitions, captain of Hogwarts Gobstones Team and good enough to get a photo in the newspaper. She was noted as not pretty, her looks are similar to Severus Snape except for her nose. She was concurrently the President of the Hogwarts Gobstone Club, written by JKR in Gobstones article of Wizarding World website.

‘No – no – Harry, I didn’t mean that!’ she said hastily, looking around to check that they were not being overheard. ‘It’s just that I was right about Eileen Prince once owning the book. You see … she was Snape’s mother!’

‘I thought she wasn’t much of a looker,’ said Ron. Hermione ignored him.

‘I was going through the rest of the old Prophets and there was a tiny announcement about Eileen Prince marrying a man called Tobias Snape, and then later an announcement saying that she’d given birth to a –’
‘– murderer,’ spat Harry.

‘Well … yes,’ said Hermione. ‘So … I was sort of right. Snape must have been proud of being “half a Prince”, you see? Tobias Snape was a Muggle from what it said in the Prophet.’

Here, we get a Daily Prophet announcement of her marriage with Tobias Snape, it was recognised in wizarding world.

I can only speculate how come she went on to marry Tobias. Most likely reason it being a love marriage. Eileen met the muggle man Tobias who showed interest in plain, sullen girl. WizWitches often find muggles interesting, so Eileen was taken in by Tobias.

Princes by their name sound like an important name, yet there is no mention of them in Sacred 28. Most likely reason, being they were half-bloods marriage either muggleborns or muggles. Perhaps they were once prominent family in a decline like Gaunts. There are many parallels noted between Tom Riddle and Severus Snape, so I choose to believe the latter.

Eileen unlike Merope, lives around after her marriage and son's birth. I am not an expert on socio-economic conditions of UK around 60s and 70s, but apparently there was inflation and rise of unemployment during that period. I headcanon Tobias being a ex-soldier, fought during Korean war in 1950-53, he suffered trauma from losing friends and loss.

Tobias knew about Eileen being a witch as far as I know, there are many stories which has Tobias not knowing about Eileen being a witch till Severus showed accidental magic. The announcement of marriage in Daily Prophet most likely meant that Tobias knew about Eileen.

Ex-soldier get PTSD, which was not a recognised or well known condition at that period. Tobias got military retirement, settled in industrial area of Cokeworth. With rising unemployment, his PTSD and inflation, Tobias came to resent Eileen, believing magic could've fixed his troubles yet Eileen doesn't do enough for him and turned to alcohol and progressive became abusive taking his trauma out on his son, where Tobias saw his efforts as disciplining his son.

‘How are things at your house?’ Lily asked.

A little crease appeared between his eyes.

‘Fine,’ he said.

‘They’re not arguing any more?’

‘Oh, yes, they’re arguing,’ said Snape.

He picked up a fistful of leaves and began tearing them apart, apparently unaware of what he was doing. ‘But it won’t be that long and I’ll be gone.’

‘Doesn’t your dad like magic?’

‘He doesn’t like anything, much,’ said Snape.

Lily knew something was wrong in Snape household, cares enough to ask about his parents. Snape is deflecting and confessed that his parents often argue and his father doesn't like anything much and Pottermore mentioned his father using belt on him, thus being physically abusive.

Next mention in timeline comes from OOTP, but it could've been before previous scene of young Severus meeting Lily.

Snape staggered – his wand flew upwards, away from Harry – and suddenly Harry’s mind was teeming with memories that were not his: a hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman, while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner.

Snape inherited his hook nose from his father. Eileen was noted as cowering so Tobias was abusive to her as well. Young Severus cried in corner because of the dysfunctional family dynamics between his father and mother.

Next mention of Eileen in our timeline came in The Prince's Tale.

And the scene reformed. Harry looked around: he was on platform nine and three-quarters, and Snape stood beside him, slightly hunched, next to a thin, sallow-faced, sour-looking woman who greatly resembled him. Snape was staring at a family of four a short distance away. The two girls stood a little apart from their parents. Lily seemed to be pleading with her sister; Harry moved closer to listen.

Snape's mother apparently cared enough for him to take him to King's Cross, her demeanor was noted to haven't changed since her age of 15, yet Snape was looking at Evans family and couldn't wait to go to Hogwarts and get rid of his muggle clothes. Things weren't all right in Snape household and young Severus couldn't wait any longer to leave it behind.

We can't say what happened to Eileen after this scene. She could've died, could've moved to hospital, moved out from Spinner's End, all of these are up for speculation and I hope I have covered Eileen's backstory and her relationship with Tobias into this while trying my take on Tobias Snape's behaviour.

Quote from JaySM on July 19, 2023, 2:51 pm

Quote from Dark Angel on July 19, 2023, 11:25 am

22. Discussion: What is your headcanon on Eileen's backstory? How did she come to marry Tobias?

I agree with Naaga except that I would like to change a few things.

I don’t think she was that popular. A photo in the school paper doesn’t signal popularity to me because it was just a small snippet that was written and there wasn’t much said about Eileen personally, everything else we learn from Severus’ memories.

Severus has an interest in the Dark Arts at a young age, before school. I think that stems from family interest because Severus’ read Eileen’s old books. This leads me to believe that A, the Prince family are a pure blood family that comes from outside the UK and came after the Sacred 28 was made. B, Eileen’s mother was probably part of the Sacred 28 and married a Prince who wouldn’t be in the sacred 28 for the same reasons the Potters were.

This comes from the Wizarding World Website: “Why didn’t the Potters make the Sacred Twenty-Eight?
Potter is a common Muggle surname. Harry’s family didn’t make the list, according to J.K. Rowling, because ‘the anonymous compiler of that supposedly definitive list of pure-bloods suspected that they had sprung from what he considered to be tainted blood’.”

The Princes’ probably had the same mindset as the Potters and Eileen’s mother probably had the same mindset about Dark Magic and muggles as the rest of the Dark Witches and Wizards in the Sacred 28. It would have made for a rocky marriage which I think would account for Eileen’s sullen expression during her youth.

During Eileen’s school year, I’d imagine that Voldemort was assembling a rally of Walspurgis Knights at the school. Eileen wanting nothing to do with the direction the Wizarding world was headed and sought a haven within the muggle world.

In comes, war-ridden Tobias, who exudes security and confidence and has a stable life in the mill. She falls in love and gives her Father’s belief in muggles a chance. She goes all in, heart and all. What she wouldn’t have taken account for was the drug addiction and alcoholism. The drug Amphetamine is a highly addictive drug that was used during the Korean War to increase focus and trigger aggression as well as keep their soldiers awake. I think Tobias was addicted and was still using said drugs while he was with Eileen. During the times he couldn’t, he would supply himself with alcohol as a holdover. When Tobias lost his job, he would begin selling things within the house just to get a bit of the drug or its cheaper, altered forms, like Methamphetamine. I could see Eileen staying,  not truly understanding the muggle addiction and using her potions skills to invent something to help Tobias with the symptoms and inadvertently teaching Severus how to battle such drugs teaching him the inventive skills he currently has in his potions skills. Tobias gets more violent when both the good and bad symptoms of his drug use goes away and wants it tweaked where he only has the good side-effects. When it’s not to perfection, he physically releases tantrums.

It’s an abusive cycle where Eileen stays because she’s the only one that can help her husband and has hope that he’ll change not knowing she’s enabling his addictions. She becomes more bitter with Tobias’ ungratefulness as their marriage continues and probably uses dark magic to stop Tobias from hurting himself and others. With her attention on Tobias, there leaves no room for Severus. What little attention she gives him is used to help Eileen further help his father (which he really doesn’t like) and hearing her bitterness about how she should’ve heeded her mother’s words about muggles probably planted the seed on muggles. This deep seated dislike of muggles grows as he meets more that fit the negative muggle mindset.

Quote from Dark Angel on July 19, 2023, 2:52 pm

@naaga thank you for this lovely and thorough response!

You did raise very interesting points!

So, I have previously shared here that I believe that the Princes were immigrants and perhaps that's why they are not part of the Sacred 28 or they lost their prominence like the Gaunts.

Eileen's description as sullen shows one of two things: either she was suffering from depression at a young age or she herself came from a troubled home. I like to think that her parents were very strict and controlling (mind you, this is made up and has no proof in canon) and she felt suffocated by them. I imagine that one of her muggleborn school friends may have invited her along to a party or the like in the muggle world. Eileen may have lied to her parents about where she was going or simply snuck out. She happens to make Tobias acquaintance and seems interested.

Things between them get serious and/or out of hand. This must be the mid or late 50s and even muggles were more conservative back then and the magical world seems rather backwarded even decades later, Eileen lost her virginity (she may or may not be pregnant at this time) and her family is furious and disgusted. She gets disowned and thrown out. Here, I personally like to think that Tobias never meant to have a serious relationship with Eileen but because she is more of a wallflower and most probably isn't used to getting attention from men, it was easy for him to wrap her around his finger and have some fun with her. Or he may have genuinely loved her. Either way, he is man enough to take responsibility for her and take her as his wife.

Now, in Harry Potter, the relationship of the parents and how a child is conceived seems to play a big role in how a child turns out. Voldemort is the result of rape (Merope drugged Riddle Senior, he never approached her willingly!) He is incapable of love. James and Lily were a young couple in love and whether their relationship was smart or would have lasted is another topic but young love is usually the purest and Harry is capable of loving others in a healthy way. Snape is an in-between place here. His love for Lily is one sided or even by some considered an obsession, what does that say about his parents? I interpret it as Tobias and Eileen having been in love but not a healthy kind; on the contrary, I think their love must have been a toxic kind. You can love someone and still treat them terribly, the same husband who throws his wife down a flight of stairs will buy her a bouquet of flowers to make it up to her, fall on his knees and beg for forgiveness.  Eileen and Tobias could have had such a relationship. In that case, we would also know why Eileen never left if her husband was a monster. Maybe she believed that he still loved her but money is scarce and everything is expensive and he is trying so hard to make ends meet and that's why sometimes he gets very angry and lashes out. But he doesn't actually mean it! Now, what Naaga has mentioned about him suffering from PTSD could contribute to his abusive behavior. So there is love but it is fickle and not well balanced.

Naaga also mentioned that little scene at the train station and this is off topic, but have you guys noticed how Severus is described as "slightly hunched"? To me it seems as if he is expecting a blow or to be yelled at. The fact that he is not relaxed around his mother tells me that he does not feel safe around her either. Eileen also does not show him any kind of affection. She seems very cold and distant. Maybe she was not physically abusive but definitely emotionally.

Quote from Naaga on July 19, 2023, 3:13 pm

I agree with @jaysm about Amphetamine intake by Tobias and how it's addiction could've contributed to the cycle of addiction and abuse.

@darkangel, I don't agree with the love angle about relationships and their contribution in the children turning out that way.

The Tom Riddle being incapable of love wasn't due to the drugged rape, it's because he grew up alone without love. Tom Riddle learned at young age that power and fear were the things that mattered the most and his behaviour was geared towards it. He knew he was special and he wanted to dominate all.

Snape was the most parallel character to Riddle, even more than Harry. Hated father, pure blood witch mother, hatred of muggles and a deep interest in dark arts. He certainly didn't experience love from his parents but love from Lily was enough for him to change his course, otherwise he would've turned out like Voldemort.

Harry's situation was better than both Tom and Snape. He never knew he was special like Tom and never knew he was a wizard like Snape. He thus, never developed resentment against muggles despite neglect from Dursleys. He come to know his parents loved him and that memory was enough for him to feel belonging. Unlike Tom who had decided to make himself great in Hogwarts and never developing attachments and Snape who didn't get the safe haven in Hogwarts due to relentless bullying by marauders, Harry got real friends, admirers and supporters who loved him, supported him and even took care of him, like how Ron came for his rescue from Dursleys in CoS.

It was their upbringing, circumstances, their different reactions to trauma and their choices which made them different, not nature of relationship between their parents.

I agree that Eileen wasn't a good mother, I feel she was emotionally abusive towards Snape.