Do you think Severus would be able to love again after Lily?
I meant anger and loathing towards the person who made him realize that his devotion was misplaced and that he simply didn't know any better. Denial is what comes when your worldview is shattered. Hating the redhead would be pointless since she too was dead at that point and he had an idealized image of her until that point. He would consider himself foolish for doing that in the first place and not realizing that he mattered less to her than the other way around. But he should be able to move on afterwards.
That aside, this is rather pointless since the canon material ended on a different note and quite a long time ago. The author herself clarified what she could and left the rest up in the air.
My internet was acting weird, I swear I posted this already and then some, but it didn't post, and I don't write my responses on a notepad which I just did and then copy pasted it.
We're talking about a person, not a hair color. Why refer to Lily as "the redhead" rather than using her name?
I meant anger and loathing towards the person who made him realize that his devotion was misplaced and that he simply didn't know any better.
He would consider himself foolish for doing that in the first place and not realizing that he mattered less to her than the other way around.
I appreciate the clarification, though both of these quotes go back to my earlier point. Severus's love/devotion toward Lily had nothing to do with her feelings. There were no assumptions/expectations, nor did his feelings change after their friendship fell apart. He went on loving her even when he had every reason to believe she hated him, then continued to love (and risk his life for) her long after she was out of his life/married to his nemesis. Begging at Dumbledore's feet, switching sides, clearly having no problem with Lily's whole family being protected as long as she was safe…
He didn't do those things because he hoped to be reconciled with her. There's no sign that he expected anything at all, even something as small as her gratitude. He just wanted her to live, even if she hated him, even if she remained married to James and never spoke to him again.
Of course, we all know the rest of the story, but it's worth pointing out that the patterns are the same both before and after her death. He loved her, a love that was unconditional, one that never required her to love him back or even give him the time of day. Is there tragedy in that? Of course there is, though that doesn't mean his love was "misplaced" or that "he didn't know any better".
On that point, the idea of him having some late stage, postwar revelation that his feelings ran deeper than hers? That's something he would've known all along, a conclusion he must've come to after SWM and perhaps even before that. Again, her feelings had nothing to do with his… if they had, I imagine he would've fallen out of love with her before they even left Hogwarts.
That aside, this is rather pointless since the canon material ended on a different note and quite a long time ago.
This isn't pointless. It's fandom. Speculating and theorizing and filling in the blanks is what we do, and personally, I'm grateful for it. All of us may have a different perspective, and we might disagree, but in the end, we all love Snape as a character/want the best for him. My version of that is either a happy ending for him and Lily or at least a situation where he might be able to move on and find peace. I think you and I agree on the latter… we just have very different perspectives on what it would take for him to get there.
Eh. Just not really a fan of her. And it's kind of a habit of mine to refer her by hair color than the name at this point. I guess, it might be a bit silly on my part 😀
We can agree to disagree. Although in the end, we're of the same opinion that he should be able to move on.
My point of view is that his devotion was misplaced due to the "friendship" on unequal terms. He came from an abusive household, got abused and vilified at Hogwarts as well. Never got any sort of positive interaction aside from some sliver of it from his "best friend" and the Slytherin "friends." Lily came from a relatively normal household and her world was completely different than what Severus could fathom. She could never truly understand his situation either. The pureblood Slytherins only tolerated him due to him being useful and he never got anything normal from them either.
As for the loving someone else, if he were to get a genuine friend turned lover or whatever later on. He would come to a realization that he was indeed foolish to idealize someone who probably wasn't as good as he imagined and that the friendship was on unequal terms, and he mattered less to her than vice versa. He would be able to move on after some denial and anger towards the person who made him realize that.
And yes, him loving Lily was unconditional and he didn't expect anything from her, but my point is that it was unhealthy for him. He didn't grow up in a normal household and wasn't used to what was normal or not hence the "not knowing any better" part. The reason of him not moving on from her was due to him considering himself responsible for her death as well as idealizing her to absurdity and not to mention the whole "war" going on.
Also, it's fun to have discussion about things but it was pointless in my opinion because the story ended quite differently and a long time ago lol and not to mention Rowling clarified things as much as she could, whether she failed to do that or not is an entirely different matter 😛
Everyone here have put some interesting views about Snape's love towards his Lily. My take is that he initially blamed himself post SWM, he was angry with her after she started dating James. But he did love her enough to protect her and started to become disillusioned with DEs and thus defected. He put her on pedestal post Lily's death as a coping mechanism for his guilt and placed all the blame of their falling out on himself. He made Lily his symbol of light and cause of everything good about himself to absolve some of the guilt.
I assume in a Lily survive AU, he won't do that and he would carry a healthy grudge for her siding with his bullies because Snape does nurse his grudges well and this one he is not likely to forgive easily without all the guilt and remorse of causing her death.
Snape could only realise that his friendship with Lily was not perfect and both were equally to blame if he had someone who is patient to hear his story without any bias and points out her flaws in their dysfunctional friendship. This person could be anyone, it doesn't need to be Lily or her ghost, it could be an OC, Hermione, Harry, basically any empathetic friend. Also requires him to get over his guilt to make that realisation so could be possible in a post war Snape survival, because that guilt impedes him from moving on.
Snape has to forgive himself for his role of causing Lily's death before he could move on, which is therefore realistically possible only in Post War setting where he's already saved Harry and has a platform to start living for himself for a change.
I can see where you guys are coming from, and I think both of you make valid points. I agree that Severus idealized her to an unhealthy degree, particularly as an adult, which (when you really think about it) wasn't fair to her either. No one could live up to the version of her that existed in his head. She was a human being with flaws, after all, not some deity.
Maybe the fatal flaw in their relationship is that they idealized each other. That's a natural thing to do when we're young and naive... we're much more inclined to see the world in black and white than shades of gray. In Lily's case, I think she did put Severus on a pedestal to some degree. He was the one who introduced her to the magical world, and in their pre-Hogwarts days, it was him she looked to for all the answers. Between that and all their dreams of what life would be like when they went off to school, I don't think she was prepared for the realities.
Sam, you say Severus was at a disadvantage due to the nature of his childhood, which is a fair point. However, I'd argue that Lily faced a different type of disadvantage, being from a Muggle background with no knowledge of the magical world. In this, the power imbalance is in Severus's favor. He knew much more than she did, and he chose to conceal the darker, more complicated parts. Of course, we know why he did that and I don't blame him for it, but it did contribute to the imbalance It's safe to say that the harsher realities of Hogwarts (and the magical world as a whole) would've been a much bigger shock to her than they were to him. It would've been harder to let go of the much prettier version he painted for her, because that was all she knew.
Given that context, I can understand why she found it more difficult to accept their differences than he did. Of course, it didn't help that neither of them were great communicators (they were teenagers, after all), nor that Lily would have been bombarded with propaganda/anti-Slytherin prejudice. I know people who dislike her tend to minimize that, but it's not realistic. When literally everyone else you know (including adults you're supposed to trust) are pouring that kind of poison into your ears on a daily basis, it's going to have an effect. How anyone can blame her for that is beyond me, especially considering how young she was. Let's not forget that Voldemort (and the Slytherins that admired him) were a very real threat to someone like her. She had valid reason to be afraid, to respond defensively to any sign that Severus might be going down that path.
Back to my point...
I do think she had him on a pedestal in the beginning, but reality made it impossible for her to keep him there. If they'd been more mature and/or their differences less extreme, she might have found her way around that, learning to accept his flaws and shortcomings. As it is, she was never given that opportunity. Not because she was a bad person or didn't care about him, but because both of them were kids who were in over their heads. There's a lot we can say with the benefit of hindsight, but Lily didn't have that. Neither did Severus, for that matter.
Anyway...
I think they both put each other on pedestals. The difference is that Severus toppled off of his, while Lily never did. Not because she wasn't flawed as well, but because circumstances made that impossible.
- Quote from Sam on March 14, 2024, 1:16 pm
Eh. Just not really a fan of her. And it's kind of a habit of mine to refer her by hair color than the name at this point. I guess, it might be a bit silly on my part
Earlier this week, I finished a book called No Visible Bruises, which is a deep dive into domestic violence. One of the points that repeatedly came up is that abusers often go out of their way to avoid using their female partner's name. Some refer to them using derogatory slurs (e.g. bitch, whore, cunt), while others either use physical descriptors, terms of ownership, or neutral/generic terms like "woman". The theory (and what some of these abusers have admitted) is that avoiding using women's names makes it easier to abuse them. It diminishes their humanity and certainly their individuality, a tactic that positions them as "less than".
Am I suggesting you're an abuser? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Let's just get that out of the way before I continue. I'm explaining this because a) I wanted you to understand why I'm sensitive to it, and b.) it's part of a larger point I wanted to make.
I don't think the average man who does this is an abuser. I think it's part of our culture, something so prevalent that many of us don't even notice. Still, it's a weird (and sometimes troubling) double standard, one that I think deserves further reflection.
In this context, I'd be curious to know if you avoid using names for male characters you dislike. On the flip side, what do you call female characters you either like or have no strong opinion on? Do you call Narcissa or Hermione "the blonde" or "the brunette", or do you use their names?
If I'm correct and you use names in both cases, I do think it's reasonable to ask why you hold Lily to a different standard. My guess is that you never really thought about it and are just being silly as you said, which… hey, fair enough. I'm not here to judge you or tell you what you can and cannot say. I just wanted to offer my perspective and perhaps give you some food for thought.
As a side note, I shall henceforth refer to James Potter as "dude with the glasses". 😉
I think Severus would have preferred to die in war like he did in the books. I don’t think he would have wanted it any other way.
Quote from Heatherlly on March 14, 2024, 10:29 pmQuote from Sam on March 14, 2024, 1:16 pmEh. Just not really a fan of her. And it's kind of a habit of mine to refer her by hair color than the name at this point. I guess, it might be a bit silly on my part
Earlier this week, I finished a book called No Visible Bruises, which is a deep dive into domestic violence. One of the points that repeatedly came up is that abusers often go out of their way to avoid using their female partner's name. Some refer to them using derogatory slurs (e.g. bitch, whore, cunt), while others either use physical descriptors, terms of ownership, or neutral/generic terms like "woman". The theory (and what some of these abusers have admitted) is that avoiding using women's names makes it easier to use them. It diminishes their humanity and certainly their individuality, a tactic that positions them as "less than".
Am I suggesting you're an abuser? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Let's just get that out of the way before I continue. I'm explaining this because a) I wanted you to understand why I'm sensitive to it, and b.) it's part of a larger point I wanted to make.
I don't think the average man who does this is an abuser. I think it's part of our culture, something so prevalent that many of us don't even notice. Still, it's a weird (and sometimes troubling) double standard, one that I think deserves further reflection.
In this context, I'd be curious to know if you avoid using names for male characters you dislike. On the flip side, what do you call female characters you either like or have no strong opinion on? Do you call Narcissa or Hermione "the blonde" or "the brunette", or do you use their names?
If I'm correct and you use names in both cases, I do think it's reasonable to ask why you hold Lily to a different standard. My guess is that you never really thought about it and are just being silly as you said, which… hey, fair enough. I'm not here to judge you or tell you what you can and cannot say. I just wanted to offer my perspective and perhaps give you some food for thought.
Eh. Not really what I think of that topic and that wasn't even my intention lol. I have said it a countless time that Severus is my only, the only favorite character out of the entire franchise. For the remaining characters, either I am indifferent or loathe them.
And no, Lily isn't the only special one that gets that treatment from me. I call James "pottiehead" whenever I am misfortunate enough to discuss him. The Black scion is a "deranged mutt", Lupin is the "coward wolf", and Peter is the affectionate "rat" or "ratman." And I usually call Severus a pathetic simp too, but that's a different matter entirely. For other characters, I have pet names too. Guess, it speaks more about me, huh. Ahem.
As for how you describe others, I don't have an opinion on it except why not? I would be glad if you referred to James as "piece of shit" instead of "dude with glasses."
Onto the topic at hand and your response, I respectfully disagree that Lily ever put him on a pedestal. She had extremely unrealistic expectations of him while never ever trying to understand his situation. She would condemn his behavior while condoning the behavior of her precious Gryffindors. Yes, I am aware that as a response you will argue that Severus didn't condemn his Slytherin "friends" during that silly little argument before the "At least, they don't use dark magic." Obviously, she's not his mother so she doesn't owe him anything.
My point is that their little "friendship" was flawed, if you can even consider it even a friendship let alone the proclaimed status of best friends. Lily came from a relatively normal household even when she was a muggleborn. At Hogwarts, she got treated just fine from practically everyone. The inbr...pureblood Slytherins couldn't do jack-shit about her except maybe call her a Mudblood (the term is nothing like the IRL N-word or any other slur.) While Severus was targeted from the beginning by the scum known as marauders who were sanctioned by the great Dumble Dick himself along with the rest of staff. Hogwarts should be burned to the ground in my humble opinion. >:)
Back to the point at hand, Severus was at her beck and call for meager scraps of her time, which is quite pathetic but understandable since she was the only one to give him something resembling normal, which in itself is rather sad.
Also, you're right about everyone poisoning Lily's view of Slytherins and thus Severus' too. But Severus was also poisoned by the beliefs of the people around him, not that they needed to do much considering how he was treated by everyone, and his dislike of others was at least understandable. Not that prejudice of any kind is good, mind you.
Quite a bit redundant and silly of me to keep on ranting but the reason I dislike Lily is because in my opinion, she's a hypocrite, yes, yes, others are too, including Severus as well. And not being much of a friend let alone best friend. Not to mention the egregious act of hooking up and later marrying a known scumbag that repeatedly abused her "friend" for years, yes, he changed or hid his antics from Lily, not really, more of an out of sight, out of mind scenario. Yes, she's free to date even Albus Dumbledore himself without anyone judging her. But friends don't do that; not even former friends would do that. I suppose she could have done it out of spite.
This has gone long enough from me lol. I do love the discussion and seeing the different responses. I love how we all have different views about things, this is true diversity, otherwise it would be an echo chamber. United by our love for Severus, divided by opinions, even if some are wrong. Ahem.
Also, Jay, yeah, he would have preferred to die for sure, but we are assuming he survives. In that situation, he should be able to move on, if, as I described above, he finds a person who makes him realize a few things.
The comment about "dude with the glasses" was meant to be tongue in cheek. As for the word "simp"... I could write a whole rant about that, but I'll spare us both and leave it alone. 😂
What I will say is that I appreciate you, Sam. Being able to debate strong opinions without taking it personally says a lot about your character. Sure, you could say that this is just fiction, which is trivial in the grand scheme of things. But the internet is full of people who can't tell the difference between "challenging an idea" and "personal attack", so yeah... good to know you're not one of them. 🙂
Beyond that, I'm sure we can agree that fiction is subjective. We all interpret things differently, and ultimately see what we want to see. Hell, this site is full of people (myself included) who minimize or excuse Severus's actions, even when those actions are (objectively speaking) shitty as hell. Why? Because we've chosen to like him. That's what makes characters good or bad, forgivable or heinous, something that goes well beyond what's written in the original text.
Point is, neither of us are right or wrong. There's no "good Lily" or "bad Lily", something that can objectively be proven through examples and analysis. We only have our own version, one that each of us prefers for whatever reason . I might think that yours is rather harsh/unforgiving, but that doesn't make it less valid.
