Weekly Discussion: Favoritism
Quote from Naaga on July 22, 2023, 8:38 am24. Discussion: Do you think Severus Snape was a bully? Why or why not?
Okay, I'm going to jump in with an answer that many people may not agree with. I don't mind being the person with the unpopular opinion, but this is how I feel. I wasn't going to answer this initially, but hell, I'll do it anyway.
Now, I simply took my answer from Quora which was written in response to the question of - 'Is there anything JKR has said about Snape that you do not agree with?'
So this Quora answer was written quite snarkily, and a lot of the points were aimed at your typical child-abusing claims. So there may be remnants of snark still there. I've edited as best as I could, but I'm currently sick, exhausted, and sleep-deprived so this would have to do.
No, in my opinion, he wasn’t a bully.
The thing is, JKR appeared to be very selective as to who this would apply to and has a habit of saying things that contradict a lot of what we see. She says that Severus was a bully, but then if you actually consider the rest of the faculty, 1) They (mostly) all had harsh teaching styles, if not worse, and 2) It seems to be the norm at Hogwarts, 3) Severus was actually rather tame considering the students who most misbehaved under his care.
So if Severus is strangely called a bully, why wasn't any other staff accused of being the same?
There is no evidence that he hated/bullied everyone except Slytherin (no evidence of that - fanon), and he even punishes his own (he assigns ?Crabbe/Goyle detention - can’t recall which). And we don’t even know if he actually does award points, or deducts from his own - there is no evidence either of this because we only get Harry’s limited view, and he doesn’t see Severus every second of every day. He is no more ‘house biased’ than Dumbledore, in fact, I think Dumbledore was worst.
Severus was strict, no-nonsense, rude, harsh, blunt, abrasive, antagonistic at times, and disciplinary. He was also incredibly dedicated, methodical, instructive, and incredibly protective over the lives of his students, and took their safety far more seriously than any other teacher at that school. But a ‘bully’, he was not. Teachers like that are very common in their era, and even mine, and no way in hell would I ever consider any of them bullies (and I had many of them at school, even far worse), especially when ‘woke culture’ takes things much too far.
Taking off points for calling out of turn? Completely justified. No child should feel entitled to their own knowledge that calling out would benefit them. Give other students a chance to answer. Berating a single student for constantly doing this is not bullying.
Getting frustrated over a kid who is constantly putting himself and others in danger, during Potions, because he was consistently clumsy and incompetent, and melted cauldrons due to error was a common occurrence. Neville was a hazard. Severus exhibiting anger and frustration over this is not bullying.
Exploding in anger because a child he trusted for two minutes decided to go snooping in his private memories when he had to race to an emergency? Memories that could have risked Severus’ own life given his role, especially with Harry’s newfound connection with Voldemort. You know, the actual point of the Occlumency lessons. He was absolutely justified in his anger. Neither of those actions have anything to do with bullying.
Deducting points and giving out detention when two students started swearing at him? Absolutely justified.
Berating a child for sneaking out after curfew? Justified.
Etc.
Severus deducted points and assigned detention for students who broke the rules, didn’t adhere to instructions, stole, sabotaged lessons, and lied. In a magical school, the stakes were much higher, especially during a time of (rising) War.
That’s not bullying - as a teacher he had a duty of care to keep their students safe, but he also had to be disciplinary for bad behavior. He wasn't purposely 'targeting' anyone for no reason - the ones he constantly berated were the ones constantly breaking the same rules, and making the same mistakes they did in every class. That is the norm for any teacher, and Severus was no ‘worse’ than the others.
In comparison to the other teachers, Severus wasn't any worse than they were. Calling him a bully, means the rest of the faculty was, too.
I had far worse teachers who were far more unpleasant, and I never called them a bully then, and from an adult perspective now, I still wouldn't call them a bully. I just think it's far too overboard to label a strict teacher a bully when they still have a duty to keep their students adhered to the rules as with the consequences of their actions.
Severus wanted discipline and order and did what was necessary to keep them in line. That's all.
If Severus truly was a bully, why don't see him picking on students in every lesson? Not even Neville was berated in every lesson, because we are only privy to a select few. Neville even passed potions - a bully would never have allowed that. Severus only gets mad when Ron intervenes, otherwise, why doesn't he target him simply for being Harry's friend? A bully would be petty enough to do so.
Just my thoughts on this controversial matter.
@salvyus I love how you summed that up in the last paragraph! Snape's not an Angel but also not the Devil.
@sanctuaryangel there's no unpopular opinion here and your opinion on anything is always welcome. Besides, if all of us had the same opinion on everything, discussions would be boring and unnecessary.
The answer is great and it is true that Hogwarts teachers are really not the best given how they seem to have completely ignored what was happening to Snape and deducting points and assigning detentions definitely not somewhat that can be filed away under bullying but there are certain times where Snape could have handled things more professionally.
1. The first potions lesson where he singles out Harry and aims at humiliating him for not knowing the answer; he was clearly not just trying to teach the kids to come to class prepared.
2. Threatening to poison Trevor. I would have simply kicked the kid and the toad out of class, given a zero for that day and reminded him that pets belong in the dorms not the classrooms. I know the fandom exaggerates this incident and I'm sure he wasn't actually going to kill the toad, he was just trying to scare Neville into never making the mistake of bringing his pet to class again but Neville is already an anxious kid and fear and intimidation are just not tactics that work with him.
3. "I don't see a difference." Mocking a student's appearance is a no-go and has absolutely no disciplinary benefit.
4. My memory is hazy about this one, but there's a scene in OotP where Snape breaks or vanishes Harry's sample and Hermione has already vanished his potion so he gets zero credit for the day. It happens after the disastrous occlumency lesson. That's akin to a teacher ripping a student's assignment. Again, a nope.
5. Beginning of sixth year, Harry comes to the castle drenched in his own blood and Snape's priority is his violation of the school's dress code.
This are the incidents that I had real issue with. His detentions for rule breaking and cheek are absolutely justified though.
Quote from Dark Angel on July 23, 2023, 11:44 am@salvyus I love how you summed that up in the last paragraph! Snape's not an Angel but also not the Devil.
@sanctuaryangel there's no unpopular opinion here and your opinion on anything is always welcome. Besides, if all of us had the same opinion on everything, discussions would be boring and unnecessary.
The answer is great and it is true that Hogwarts teachers are really not the best given how they seem to have completely ignored what was happening to Snape and deducting points and assigning detentions definitely not somewhat that can be filed away under bullying but there are certain times where Snape could have handled things more professionally.
1. The first potions lesson where he singles out Harry and aims at humiliating him for not knowing the answer; he was clearly not just trying to teach the kids to come to class prepared.
2. Threatening to poison Trevor. I would have simply kicked the kid and the toad out of class, given a zero for that day and reminded him that pets belong in the dorms not the classrooms. I know the fandom exaggerates this incident and I'm sure he wasn't actually going to kill the toad, he was just trying to scare Neville into never making the mistake of bringing his pet to class again but Neville is already an anxious kid and fear and intimidation are just not tactics that work with him.
3. "I don't see a difference." Mocking a student's appearance is a no-go and has absolutely no disciplinary benefit.
4. My memory is hazy about this one, but there's a scene in OotP where Snape breaks or vanishes Harry's sample and Hermione has already vanished his potion so he gets zero credit for the day. It happens after the disastrous occlumency lesson. That's akin to a teacher ripping a student's assignment. Again, a nope.
5. Beginning of sixth year, Harry comes to the castle drenched in his own blood and Snape's priority is his violation of the school's dress code.
This are the incidents that I had real issue with. His detentions for rule breaking and cheek are absolutely justified though.
I am going to be super brief here (or at least, I'll try to xD), but I did notice some of your points are common misconceptions. No shade here just wanted to clarify -
1 - I do agree Severus was a mega-asshole here, and maybe my culture here in Australia does this as the norm in higher education, but it's perfectly acceptable to ask a student questions on a new subject to test what they know on the first day. Keeping in mind, Harry actually did have the textbooks a month prior and did read through them. Instead of giving his teacher cheek, I really think Harry should have told him that he read the books, but didn't remember the answer. And I also do think Severus was proving a huge point here - fame isn't everything and Harry is expected to work hard like everyone else, regardless of fame. The only thing that is terrible, is Severus blaming Harry for Neville's screw-up in that first class - that one, I am not on board with.
2 - Common misconception (sorry to be pedantic lol) - Severus made no actual threat. Severus explained to Neville the consequences of an incorrectly brewed potion. Sure, scare tactics definitely don't work on an anxious, accident-prone kid such as Neville (so I don't agree with Severus' approach here), but Severus made no actual threat and wasn't intending to kill the toad. Severus was actually more angry over Hermione helping him, when she was asked not to, as evident in the following scene where Severus states to Lupin that she was 'hissing instructions in his ear.' And yes, Neville should have never brought his own pet to Potions class, of all places.
3 - Eh, I personally don't think this scene was as bad as people make it out to be. Hermione was supposedly smart enough to take herself to the Hospital Wing, as her 'injury' wasn't quite so bad, yet instead she stood there crying about it (not sure what she was expecting? I found this very OOC for her). Not to mention the children of DEs were right there with him, and he would have needed to keep up appearances, especially during the year when his Dark Mark was returning. Again, Severus was a mega-asshole here, but I personally don't think it was that bad considering the circumstances.
4 - Another common misconception - there is actually nothing to indicate that Severus was the culprit here, only that he found it amusing. It could have simply been a case of an accident of the vial tipping off the table in Harry's hurry. No one was to blame here.
5 - Sixth year is definitely walking a thin line, keeping in mind he had taken the Unbreakable Vow, and was meant to protect Draco. I mean, I wouldn't expect to coddle Harry here, anyway xD
So much for being brief, sorry xD Just felt I needed to clarify some points. And as a disclaimer, I am merely explaining the reasonsing above.
Again, no shade. Just wanted to additionally input my thoughts as well. I love Severus in all his rudeness, antagonistic behavior, and assholery. He wouldn't be any interesting if he was kind and charitable, now would he? LOL
Thanks everyone @salvyus, @sanctuaryangel, @darkangel for interesting views. I liked each one of your takes and here comes my own.
Defination of Bully: According to Oxford learners dictionary, Bully is a person who uses their strength or power to frighten or hurt weaker people.
Does Snape fits this definition?: Unfortunately, yes! 😞
How?: There are many examples quoted by @darkangel which satisfy this criteria which I'm not gonna repeat. I would only point out that Harry's potion sample was broken by either Draco or Snape (it is unclear, I think it's Draco) and Snape marked Harry zero for it.
Snape is a figure of authority who's job is to teach. While he is not as horrible as fanon likes to point, he certainly abused his power over his students who were in weaker position than him.
He often targeted Harry for petty remarks, deducing points and detentions. His behaviour towards Neville was abhorrent and he often frightened the boy. His I see no difference remark on Hermione's teeth was cruel because he was also bullied in his teenage years over his appearance. There is no excuse for that behaviour, he enjoyed acting like petty bully and flaunting his authority.
Reason for this behaviour: I don't think it was anything to do with his spying. Snape's primary faults were his pettiness and bitterness. He was bitter over his life, his mistakes and how it turned out and took it out on his students. His behaviour with Harry was everything to do with his pettiness over James, while Harry was no saint and in fact did deserve some detentions and remarks, Snape was the one who continued the cycle of abuse started by Marauders and pushed it on Harry. Lupin was thus true in saying You are determined to hate him, Harry,’ said Lupin with a faint smile. ‘And I understand; with James as your father, with Sirius as your godfather, you have inherited an old prejudice.
I think some part of it is related to Snape's empathetic stuntness. He took care to protect his students from physical harm but didn't care to mentally protect them, he who came from an abusive household growing without love and care didn't understand mental issues of others. He did have capability of empathy, he informed Dumbledore about Dursley abuse and gave Draco reasonable advice which came from experience.
I also agree that with other students, Snape's behaviour wasn't bad and he was actually a good teacher. His classes were liked by Ernie as seen in HBP. Even Harry for all his hate couldn't find faults with Snape's teaching in HBP. Snape never deducted or awarded points to Slytherin. He didn't explicitly favour them indefinitely and often punished them privately like detentions to Crabbe and Goyle. Slytherins took care to watch Snape turn his back before bullying, they knew they won't get away with it if they get caught by Snape. Other teachers were no saints and McGonagall, Hagrid and even Flitwick had comparable if not worse offenses as Snape.
I'll conclude that while Snape fits defination of Bully and has canon evidence towards it, other teachers also fit that defination. We are talking about a series set up in 90s, written by a woman who went to school in 70s and the school was culturally in early 1900s. Teachers in those times were not trained in pedagogy and Snape who started teaching at 21 was neither trained as a teacher nor it was his primary job, it was forced upon him. Snape also joined at 21 and there were many students in upper years who probably knew him and perhaps even witnessed him getting bullied by Marauders. Snape had to cultivate an intimidating, fearful persona to protect himself and get others to respect him. He continued that style because he enjoyed this dominant feeling after near a decade of subjugation by others and continued it, enjoying a sense of power he always wished in his youth. I also somewhat agree with @sanctuaryangel for explaining the reasons of his behaviour.
Quote from SanctuaryAngel on July 23, 2023, 12:09 pmQuote from Dark Angel on July 23, 2023, 11:44 am@salvyus I love how you summed that up in the last paragraph! Snape's not an Angel but also not the Devil.
@sanctuaryangel there's no unpopular opinion here and your opinion on anything is always welcome. Besides, if all of us had the same opinion on everything, discussions would be boring and unnecessary.
The answer is great and it is true that Hogwarts teachers are really not the best given how they seem to have completely ignored what was happening to Snape and deducting points and assigning detentions definitely not somewhat that can be filed away under bullying but there are certain times where Snape could have handled things more professionally.
1. The first potions lesson where he singles out Harry and aims at humiliating him for not knowing the answer; he was clearly not just trying to teach the kids to come to class prepared.
2. Threatening to poison Trevor. I would have simply kicked the kid and the toad out of class, given a zero for that day and reminded him that pets belong in the dorms not the classrooms. I know the fandom exaggerates this incident and I'm sure he wasn't actually going to kill the toad, he was just trying to scare Neville into never making the mistake of bringing his pet to class again but Neville is already an anxious kid and fear and intimidation are just not tactics that work with him.
3. "I don't see a difference." Mocking a student's appearance is a no-go and has absolutely no disciplinary benefit.
4. My memory is hazy about this one, but there's a scene in OotP where Snape breaks or vanishes Harry's sample and Hermione has already vanished his potion so he gets zero credit for the day. It happens after the disastrous occlumency lesson. That's akin to a teacher ripping a student's assignment. Again, a nope.
5. Beginning of sixth year, Harry comes to the castle drenched in his own blood and Snape's priority is his violation of the school's dress code.
This are the incidents that I had real issue with. His detentions for rule breaking and cheek are absolutely justified though.
I am going to be super brief here (or at least, I'll try to xD), but I did notice some of your points are common misconceptions. No shade here just wanted to clarify -
1 - I do agree Severus was a mega-asshole here, and maybe my culture here in Australia does this as the norm in higher education, but it's perfectly acceptable to ask a student questions on a new subject to test what they know on the first day. Keeping in mind, Harry actually did have the textbooks a month prior and did read through them. Instead of giving his teacher cheek, I really think Harry should have told him that he read the books, but didn't remember the answer. And I also do think Severus was proving a huge point here - fame isn't everything and Harry is expected to work hard like everyone else, regardless of fame. The only thing that is terrible, is Severus blaming Harry for Neville's screw-up in that first class - that one, I am not on board with.
2 - Common misconception (sorry to be pedantic lol) - Severus made no actual threat. Severus explained to Neville the consequences of an incorrectly brewed potion. Sure, scare tactics definitely don't work on an anxious, accident-prone kid such as Neville (so I don't agree with Severus' approach here), but Severus made no actual threat and wasn't intending to kill the toad. Severus was actually more angry over Hermione helping him, when she was asked not to, as evident in the following scene where Severus states to Lupin that she was 'hissing instructions in his ear.' And yes, Neville should have never brought his own pet to Potions class, of all places.
3 - Eh, I personally don't think this scene was as bad as people make it out to be. Hermione was supposedly smart enough to take herself to the Hospital Wing, as her 'injury' wasn't quite so bad, yet instead she stood there crying about it (not sure what she was expecting? I found this very OOC for her). Not to mention the children of DEs were right there with him, and he would have needed to keep up appearances, especially during the year when his Dark Mark was returning. Again, Severus was a mega-asshole here, but I personally don't think it was that bad considering the circumstances.
4 - Another common misconception - there is actually nothing to indicate that Severus was the culprit here, only that he found it amusing. It could have simply been a case of an accident of the vial tipping off the table in Harry's hurry. No one was to blame here.
5 - Sixth year is definitely walking a thin line, keeping in mind he had taken the Unbreakable Vow, and was meant to protect Draco. I mean, I wouldn't expect to coddle Harry here, anyway xD
So much for being brief, sorry xD Just felt I needed to clarify some points. And as a disclaimer, I am merely explaining the reasonsing above.
Again, no shade. Just wanted to additionally input my thoughts as well. I love Severus in all his rudeness, antagonistic behavior, and assholery. He wouldn't be any interesting if he was kind and charitable, now would he? LOL
Please never hesitate to disagree with me or correct me. I won't take offense and there won't be hard feelings. Besides it is fun to turn this place into a fighting pit from time to time 🤪
You raised great points! I guess his actions can be interpreted differently, sometimes it's more positive and sometimes more negative. Based on today's standards, his teaching methods are rather questionable but compared to the past, he really wasn't that bad.
And let's be honest, we all love Snape because he is an asshole.
Quote from SanctuaryAngel on July 23, 2023, 10:45 amQuote from Naaga on July 22, 2023, 8:38 am24. Discussion: Do you think Severus Snape was a bully? Why or why not?
Okay, I'm going to jump in with an answer that many people may not agree with. I don't mind being the person with the unpopular opinion, but this is how I feel. I wasn't going to answer this initially, but hell, I'll do it anyway.
Now, I simply took my answer from Quora which was written in response to the question of - 'Is there anything JKR has said about Snape that you do not agree with?'
So this Quora answer was written quite snarkily, and a lot of the points were aimed at your typical child-abusing claims. So there may be remnants of snark still there. I've edited as best as I could, but I'm currently sick, exhausted, and sleep-deprived so this would have to do.
No, in my opinion, he wasn’t a bully.
The thing is, JKR appeared to be very selective as to who this would apply to and has a habit of saying things that contradict a lot of what we see. She says that Severus was a bully, but then if you actually consider the rest of the faculty, 1) They (mostly) all had harsh teaching styles, if not worse, and 2) It seems to be the norm at Hogwarts, 3) Severus was actually rather tame considering the students who most misbehaved under his care.
So if Severus is strangely called a bully, why wasn't any other staff accused of being the same?
There is no evidence that he hated/bullied everyone except Slytherin (no evidence of that - fanon), and he even punishes his own (he assigns ?Crabbe/Goyle detention - can’t recall which). And we don’t even know if he actually does award points, or deducts from his own - there is no evidence either of this because we only get Harry’s limited view, and he doesn’t see Severus every second of every day. He is no more ‘house biased’ than Dumbledore, in fact, I think Dumbledore was worst.
Severus was strict, no-nonsense, rude, harsh, blunt, abrasive, antagonistic at times, and disciplinary. He was also incredibly dedicated, methodical, instructive, and incredibly protective over the lives of his students, and took their safety far more seriously than any other teacher at that school. But a ‘bully’, he was not. Teachers like that are very common in their era, and even mine, and no way in hell would I ever consider any of them bullies (and I had many of them at school, even far worse), especially when ‘woke culture’ takes things much too far.
Taking off points for calling out of turn? Completely justified. No child should feel entitled to their own knowledge that calling out would benefit them. Give other students a chance to answer. Berating a single student for constantly doing this is not bullying.
Getting frustrated over a kid who is constantly putting himself and others in danger, during Potions, because he was consistently clumsy and incompetent, and melted cauldrons due to error was a common occurrence. Neville was a hazard. Severus exhibiting anger and frustration over this is not bullying.
Exploding in anger because a child he trusted for two minutes decided to go snooping in his private memories when he had to race to an emergency? Memories that could have risked Severus’ own life given his role, especially with Harry’s newfound connection with Voldemort. You know, the actual point of the Occlumency lessons. He was absolutely justified in his anger. Neither of those actions have anything to do with bullying.
Deducting points and giving out detention when two students started swearing at him? Absolutely justified.
Berating a child for sneaking out after curfew? Justified.
Etc.
Severus deducted points and assigned detention for students who broke the rules, didn’t adhere to instructions, stole, sabotaged lessons, and lied. In a magical school, the stakes were much higher, especially during a time of (rising) War.
That’s not bullying - as a teacher he had a duty of care to keep their students safe, but he also had to be disciplinary for bad behavior. He wasn't purposely 'targeting' anyone for no reason - the ones he constantly berated were the ones constantly breaking the same rules, and making the same mistakes they did in every class. That is the norm for any teacher, and Severus was no ‘worse’ than the others.
In comparison to the other teachers, Severus wasn't any worse than they were. Calling him a bully, means the rest of the faculty was, too.
I had far worse teachers who were far more unpleasant, and I never called them a bully then, and from an adult perspective now, I still wouldn't call them a bully. I just think it's far too overboard to label a strict teacher a bully when they still have a duty to keep their students adhered to the rules as with the consequences of their actions.
Severus wanted discipline and order and did what was necessary to keep them in line. That's all.
If Severus truly was a bully, why don't see him picking on students in every lesson? Not even Neville was berated in every lesson, because we are only privy to a select few. Neville even passed potions - a bully would never have allowed that. Severus only gets mad when Ron intervenes, otherwise, why doesn't he target him simply for being Harry's friend? A bully would be petty enough to do so.
Just my thoughts on this controversial matter.
I agree that it's utterly unfair that no-one seems to ever question the other teachers' morality (with the exception of Dumbledore).
I mean, McGonagall sent first-years to the Forbidden Forest knowing there was a Dark creature there??? And the thing that always bothers me — everyone glosses over the fact that Hagrid literally tried to transfigure a defenceless muggle child into a pig because of what his father said...
So yes, compared to others Snape definitely wasn't as bad. However, I think that this doesn't exempt him from guilt, rather it shows the other professors as equally unfit for the job. I also think that their faults weren't deliberate (aka JKR didn't realise how horrible their actions would appear if one were to look at them objectively), where as Snape was intended to be a mean grey character. But that's just speculation...
One last thing, I feel like it is implied in the text that Snape is a git who abused his position at least when it came to Harry, and we'd be stretching it a bit if we tried to excuse his behaviour in every single situation. Especially if we won't do the same for other characters like James and Sirius (though, admittedly, there are enough people defending these two as it is).
That's the beauty of literature, though. The words are the same, but everyone reads something different into them. I always find it interesting to see how others interpret different scenes.
25. Does Severus Snape have BDE (Big Dick Energy)? Why or why not? 😹😹
P.S: It's not my own topic, request from higher ups, have a fun discussion 😉
It was a request, not an order. 😉
The lack of responses would indicate that none of you believe I possess the quality known as "BDE". Suffice it to say, I find this deeply offensive, though I can only assume that @james-potter has been spreading scurrilous and entirely fictitious rumors again.
Quote from Severus Snape on July 26, 2023, 9:05 amThe lack of responses would indicate that none of you believe I possess the quality known as "BDE". Suffice it to say, I find this deeply offensive, though I can only assume that @James.Potter has been spreading scurrilous and entirely fictitious rumors again.
Hey Snivellus, can't you spend a single moment of your life without dragging me along.
It totally sucks that your followers don't believe in your BDE and it's true considering you have none.
While my fans totally defend and believe in my swag and BDE. Girls lined up for my entertainment yet I chose my dear Lily for that privilege and you couldn't get a single girl to defend your honour. 😂😂
